The problem of evil

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William
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The problem of evil

Post #1

Post by William »

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?
The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}
Last edited by William on Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #101

Post by William »

Image
[Replying to tam in post #99]

Image
Well, the example is there to help us (man).
That is an after effect .
In the real-time re the story, "WHO was GOD trying to teach?"
But the account PUBLICLY rebutted the PUBLIC accusation that the Adversary had made (as pertains to Job), showing anyone watching or listening that the Adversary was wrong, was proven wrong.
The public were the adversary, not Satan. That is a side issue re human involvement in the interplay between God and Satan....re my mentioning;

Image
The account allowed Job to answer for himself, so there can be no question as to his integrity.
Job was not consulted by either God or Satan as far as I am aware. Are you able to direct me to the passages where God or Satan consult Job before settling on a deal which involved Job?

Image
Satan isn't testing God. This was not a test for God. Satan is not a mirror for God, or a co-creator, or even a Son (the Son is Christ < - the actual and true image of God). Satan is OUR accuser, OUR adversary, and he seeks to destroy us (mankind, and in particular, anyone who belongs to Christ, to God). He is an enemy.
I suspect that this thinking has evolved through The Christianities attempting to un-slur the image of GOD as presented by the Israelites/Hebrews but has been unsuccessful in getting humans any closer to understanding GOD in the image of יהוה.

The mirror image of this process can be seen in how Early Christians understood the image of Satan as per the Hebrew Script - to appear as such;
Image
and it was only much later that The Christianites reshaped Satan to appear as such;
Image

This being the case, The Christianities have also evolved the image of GOD, from;

Image

On that count, I have no choice but to reject your reasoning as it is based upon falsified imagery.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #102

Post by tam »

Peace still,
William wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:09 pm
Well, the example is there to help us (man).
That is an after effect .
In the real-time re the story, "WHO was GOD trying to teach?"
You're assuming God was trying to teach someone to begin with... more than that, you are assuming God was trying to teach Satan. Asking the question 'who was God trying to teach' is a bit like putting the cart before the horse, isn't it?
But the account PUBLICLY rebutted the PUBLIC accusation that the Adversary had made (as pertains to Job), showing anyone watching or listening that the Adversary was wrong, was proven wrong.
The public were the adversary, not Satan. That is a side issue re human involvement in the interplay between God and Satan....re my mentioning
I'm not sure why you think that. Satan is the Adversary (our adversary). He is the one making the accusation against Job (and man) to begin with. The public are people watching (humans or angels).
The account allowed Job to answer for himself, so there can be no question as to his integrity.
Job was not consulted by either God or Satan as far as I am aware. Are you able to direct me to the passages where God or Satan consult Job before settling on a deal which involved Job?
I never claimed he was consulted. I said that account allowed for him to answer for himself. He proved his integrity, even without knowing what was going on behind the scenes.


Satan isn't testing God. This was not a test for God. Satan is not a mirror for God, or a co-creator, or even a Son (the Son is Christ < - the actual and true image of God). Satan is OUR accuser, OUR adversary, and he seeks to destroy us (mankind, and in particular, anyone who belongs to Christ, to God). He is an enemy.
I suspect that this thinking has evolved through The Christianities attempting to un-slur the image of GOD as presented by the Israelites/Hebrews but has been unsuccessful in getting humans any closer to understanding GOD in the image of יהוה.
This thinking has evolved through listening to Christ and reading the information that we do have about the Adversary.
The mirror image of this process can be seen in how Early Christians understood the image of Satan as per the Hebrew Script - to appear as such;
Image
and it was only much later that The Christianites reshaped Satan to appear as such;
Image
I am not influenced by images, and certainly not by those images (neither of which are accurate). The Adversary is a seraph and looks like a seraph, with the exception that he is no longer permitted to walk upright, and his appearance is one of 'beauty'.

‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
...

Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.


The outer appearance means absolutely nothing though (as Christ Himself taught). "Ugly" outer appearance does not mean evil. "Beautiful" outer appearance does not mean good. Just as a "clean" outer appearance does not mean a person is clean on the inside, and vice versa.

This being the case, The Christianities have also evolved the image of GOD, from;

Image
Letters are not the image of God. That picture is also not an image of God, just an image that man has created, and again, I am not influenced by appearances, as these do not matter. Christ is the image of God. Not His physical appearance as a man, but who He is, what He says and does... He reflects His Father perfectly. God is as Christ reveals Him to be.
On that count, I have no choice but to reject your reasoning as it is based upon falsified imagery.
Since my reasoning is not based upon imagery at all, that cannot be why you reject it.

My reasoning is based upon Christ and His word.


You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Then should not this daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be released from her bondage on the Sabbath day?”

And the great dragon was hurled down— that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.



Peace again.
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Re: The problem of evil

Post #103

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #102]
You're assuming God was trying to teach someone to begin with...
Then if we both do not assume that "God was trying to teach someone to begin with" what has the story got to do with "The problem of evil" or anything else for that matter?
I'm not sure why you think that. Satan is the Adversary (our adversary). He is the one making the accusation against Job (and man) to begin with. The public are people watching (humans or angels).
Interesting imagery.
Is that what God 'teaches' re the story? Isn't that an assumption by your own critique?
I never claimed he was consulted. I said that account allowed for him to answer for himself. He proved his integrity, even without knowing what was going on behind the scenes.
Are you suggesting that Job had doubts about his self and his relationship with God?
This thinking has evolved through listening to Christ and reading the information that we do have about the Adversary.
As I already showen, the information you DO have "about the adversary" has been falsified by The Christianities. What you say about Satan is based upon that imagery, whether one admits that or denies it.
Letters are not the image of God. That picture is also not an image of God, just an image that man has created, and again, I am not influenced by appearances, as these do not matter. Christ is the image of God. Not His physical appearance as a man, but who He is, what He says and does... He reflects His Father perfectly. God is as Christ reveals Him to be.
Are you saying that The Father is not יהוה as recorded in the Hebrew stories?

If we are dealing with concepts of good and evil are you saying that God and Satan are concepts invented to explain good and evil and that the concepts are real but do not look like the popular images presented through The Christianites?

They are more "energies" of some sort?
My reasoning is based upon Christ and His word.
Those are images, just as sure as יהוה is an image. You cannot separate feelings of energies of good and evil from each other, without creating some type of image, so my rejection of your explanation remains valid.

I have no choice but to reject your reasoning as it is based upon falsified imagery.

The more you attempt to explain your position, the more imagery you have to create to do so.

The less imagery you use, the less able your argument can be used to convince anyone your 'truth' is indeed truthful.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Then should not this daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be released from her bondage on the Sabbath day?”

And the great dragon was hurled down— that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
This is clear indication you are indeed using the imagery of The Christianites.

Image

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #104

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 5:29 pm [Replying to tam in post #102]
You're assuming God was trying to teach someone to begin with...
Then if we both do not assume that "God was trying to teach someone to begin with" what has the story got to do with "The problem of evil" or anything else for that matter?
It can explain the reasoning behind some causes of suffering. It can show us (mankind) what the Adversary is up to (trying to get us to 'curse God and die'). Though I had merely responded to someone else's comment on Job.
I'm not sure why you think that. Satan is the Adversary (our adversary). He is the one making the accusation against Job (and man) to begin with. The public are people watching (humans or angels).
Interesting imagery.
Is that what God 'teaches' re the story? Isn't that an assumption by your own critique?
Which part?

The word 'satan' means adversary.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... v/wlc/0-1/

Satan lived up to the meaning of his name in the story (making the accusation against Job, doing his best to make Job curse God to His face).

It is not an assumption on my behalf that Satan made the accusation against Job to begin with. That is what happened in the story. There is an audience to what is happening (angels), and we (humans) are aware after the fact.

I never claimed he was consulted. I said that account allowed for him to answer for himself. He proved his integrity, even without knowing what was going on behind the scenes.
Are you suggesting that Job had doubts about his self and his relationship with God?
No. I am suggesting that Satan accused him (and others), which may have put doubts in OTHERS' head. So that when the time comes for Job to be resurrected and receive his reward, there might have been doubt about Job's actual faith, loyalty, integrity to God. Now there is no doubt.

This thinking has evolved through listening to Christ and reading the information that we do have about the Adversary.
As I already showen, the information you DO have "about the adversary" has been falsified by The Christianities.
No, what you showed were pictures, and those pictures have no effect on me, as I explained. (though the second picture looked more like 'pan' or some other figure from a different religion).

edited to add: You also have not provided evidence that the information I have about the Adversary has been falsified.
What you say about Satan is based upon that imagery, whether one admits that or denies it.
Well if we're going to talk about what we think other people are doing (whether they admit it or deny it)... you reject the things that I shared because it does not conform to your belief. You have no evidence that the things you said are true (about Satan being a mirror for God, etc), and you have certainly presented no evidence that the things I shared that are about Satan, are false.
Letters are not the image of God. That picture is also not an image of God, just an image that man has created, and again, I am not influenced by appearances, as these do not matter. Christ is the image of God. Not His physical appearance as a man, but who He is, what He says and does... He reflects His Father perfectly. God is as Christ reveals Him to be.
Are you saying that The Father is not יהוה as recorded in the Hebrew stories?
The God and Father of Christ has a name, and at least the consonants of that name are recorded, but the Image of God is Christ. See Christ, see His Father also. Know Christ, know His Father also.

If we are dealing with concepts of good and evil are you saying that God and Satan are concepts invented to explain good and evil
No.
and that the concepts are real
If the concepts are real, then they are not invented.

The Being who is God (the God and Father of Christ) is real. God is and has always been good.

The being who is the Adversary (the devil, the ancient serpent/dragon, the one called Satan) is real. The Adversary was not created bad, but he corrupted himself.
but do not look like the popular images presented through The Christianites?
Correct, at least as to the images you presented.


They are more "energies" of some sort?
I don't know what you mean by this question. God is a real being, but does not look like that image you presented.
My reasoning is based upon Christ and His word.
Those are images, just as sure as יהוה is an image.
Well... Christ is the Image of God.

But again, it is not the physical image that matters, as explained in my previous post.
You cannot separate feelings of energies of good and evil from each other, without creating some type of image, so my rejection of your explanation remains valid.

I have no choice but to reject your reasoning as it is based upon falsified imagery.
I don't know what you mean 'feelings of energies', but you are free to do as you choose.
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Then should not this daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be released from her bondage on the Sabbath day?”

And the great dragon was hurled down— that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
This is clear indication you are indeed using the imagery of The Christianites.
Those are the words of Christ. The very person I SAID I based my understanding upon.

You certainly have not provided anything to show His words to be wrong. Nor have you provided anything other than your opinion, for your personal claims about Satan (the Adversary). You are also taking the story of JOB - that comes from the bible - but ignoring the rest of the evidence in the bible which describes Satan. That is your prerogative of course, though the nature of that being is shown in that one book as well. Even when his first accusations were proven wrong, he did not relent or have mercy or show compassion, he did not admit that he was wrong... no, he went even further, causing even more suffering, and he was still proven wrong. That image doesn't contradict the other information presented about him. But your claims are contradicted by the rest of the information presented about him.


Where are you getting the idea that such a person (or concept) as "Satan" exists in the first place?



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Re: The problem of evil

Post #105

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #104]

Image

The Bible.

You seem adverse to my understanding that the way Satan is utilized by God is reflected onto God and can be seen for what it is, by the audience.

I do not have those images you have in your beliefs about Satan, and am not accusing anyone, Satan, God or Job, Christ, David Paul or any other entity effected by God.
I am merely saying what the obvious positions are in relation to God and the angels, and Humans.
I simply pointed out that there is no mention of Job being consulted on the matter before being cast into the role.

I am unconcerned as to whether Satan had permission to inflict harm on Job and do anything to Job directly or indirectly to test Jobs loyalty to God - or whatever the reason was - as it is also obvious throughout the bible that this is how God works in such cases were an adversary is useful.
Either lessons are being learned or it is for some other - as yet unknown - reason

Satan appears to act as the dark side of יהוה and apparently the role is temporary which signifies that when God is done and dusted the dark thing becomes no more/transformed.

How you tell it, is no different than how any other Christian tells it.

That you hear an encouraging voice you call "Christ" while Joey Knotweed hears a tormentors voice he calls "Cowardly" tells me that you have dealt with your dark side more effectively and made friends with it.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #106

Post by MrPPT »

The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world.

The problem of evil does not lie in reconciling God and His abilities with the existence of evil, the problem lies in how can people if God made them?

Reconciling people and their evil natures with God is easily done so, I am not going to say how I will leave this riddle for you to solve. But suffice to say; without the ability of an evil nature true righteousness and obedience cannot be real because to be truly righteous and truly obedient you have to have within you the ability to reject doing what is righteous in the eyes of God, to be truly obedient you have to have the full unadulterated right and options to do what is disobedient to the will of God He has revealed to you.

Righteousness and obedience is spawned in us when we learn the will of God for our lives. True righteousness and obedience is cultivated in us when we know the will of God for our lives and the opportunities to reject His will for our lives are present with us every single day.

Evil is being able to do what is wrong for ourselves and our lives when compared to doing what God wants for us.

Suffering borne out of evil is obvious and we know what is good and true and why would God allow this if He is all powerful etc?

But suffering can also be borne out of doing what is righteous. Those who suffer for doing what is righteous become vessels of honour in the hands of the Master, and He pours His treasure into these jars of clay because they have suffered for righteousness' sake and shown themselves worthy of this power and empowered to pull down the evil which has been established.

The problem of evil is not to do with God, it is to do with your own understanding of evil and how it works in you to do your will or to fight the will of God.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #107

Post by oldbadger »

tam wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:41 pm
Did you see that God did not order the Adversary to destroy Job's belongings or to kill his children, or take his health? There is no suggestion that God wished for those things to happen. He gave Satan permission to do as Satan wished - but set some limitations on how far Satan could go.
.....gave Satan permission to do as Satan wished....... .
I don't know how to answer for "Christianity" (the religion), though I think your observation might be different in observing different sects. Both exist (the Adversary and demons). We are also warned about lying spirits, and are told to test the inspired expression, because not every spirit or inspired expression is from God. (Test all claims/expressions against love - nothing true will be against love; and test them also against Christ, who is the Truth and who speaks the truth.)
Do you believe that God does not control everything?
Well, religion does not tend to be spiritual. Religion is more about walking by SIGHT (rather than being about walking by FAITH). But Christ is the Spirit. God is Spirit. No religion today is from God (and Christ did not start a new religion), but instead we are meant to be worshiping in spirit and in truth (in/through Christ, the Spirit, and in truth).
I perceive the word 'spiritual' to be about spirits and I can't understand any other use....... Apart from experiencing all the emotions within life and thing/meditating about things, I've never worshipped any Gods, I tried to in my youth but for me it was a meaningless action and I just don't understand it.
To the bold: to a point, perhaps... but I think if we followed nature's every 'wish', then there would be far fewer deaths from natural 'disasters' (called so mostly just because of the loss of life).
We seem to be completely under the demands of nature, Tam. For example, was Genghis Khan a wicked man when he and his armies raced across the Mongolian/Russian continents in to Europe, pillaging, looting and consuming everything, or was that Nature's way of intermixing bloodlines, a surge, or a migration? I've often wondered about that. I don't like the idea of people overrunning our neighbourhood with all the outrages that it would bring with it, but I do wonder if humans are programmed to migrate like that. Nature?
On that I must disagree. A hawk is hunting food to survive. It is necessary for the hawk to survive. It is doing what it does, as you said..
I do not think that anything in Nature can be or do evil, Tam.
But going out and harming others (murder, rape, bearing false witness, etc)... those are bad/evil things... and there is no comparison with the hawk hunting the rabbit. I'm not making a judgment against the person at all, but those things are bad/evil (<- synonyms).
When you included false witness with murder and rape, a truly disgusting action, I instantly thought of the laws of Moses, Tam..... What do you think about the laws of Moses?
Peace again to you!
And to you, Tam.
Do you live in the US?

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #108

Post by oldbadger »

tam wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:41 pm May you have peace,
And to you, Tam....... I lost control with this post in my answer, and thus have erased it....... will try again after a tea.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #109

Post by TRANSPONDER »

MrPPT wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:21 am The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world.

The problem of evil does not lie in reconciling God and His abilities with the existence of evil, the problem lies in how can people if God made them?

Reconciling people and their evil natures with God is easily done so, I am not going to say how I will leave this riddle for you to solve. But suffice to say; without the ability of an evil nature true righteousness and obedience cannot be real because to be truly righteous and truly obedient you have to have within you the ability to reject doing what is righteous in the eyes of God, to be truly obedient you have to have the full unadulterated right and options to do what is disobedient to the will of God He has revealed to you.

Righteousness and obedience is spawned in us when we learn the will of God for our lives. True righteousness and obedience is cultivated in us when we know the will of God for our lives and the opportunities to reject His will for our lives are present with us every single day.

Evil is being able to do what is wrong for ourselves and our lives when compared to doing what God wants for us.

Suffering borne out of evil is obvious and we know what is good and true and why would God allow this if He is all powerful etc?

But suffering can also be borne out of doing what is righteous. Those who suffer for doing what is righteous become vessels of honour in the hands of the Master, and He pours His treasure into these jars of clay because they have suffered for righteousness' sake and shown themselves worthy of this power and empowered to pull down the evil which has been established.

The problem of evil is not to do with God, it is to do with your own understanding of evil and how it works in you to do your will or to fight the will of God.
There are two responses to this - that man fell and brought evil on himself (and the rest of creation, apparently), or that Genesis is mythical and Eden is just a metaphor for the human condition.

With the first, Man was ok until he fell, correct? If so, how did God allow him to fall? Didn't he know that man had the capacity to fall into sin? Didn't God know what was happening? Didn't He know before it happened? If he knew he'd have to wipe out all creation, why not do it and start with Adam and ensure he didn't fall? Whichever way you slice it, it's God's responsibility, not man.s (1)

Or we can sideline Eden as myth and see it as the human condition it is but with God having some input. I can vaguely get the idea that God wants perfect beings in his heaven, but what is that perfection? Being moral beings or not knowing what morality is, as per the Adam -myth? That can't be. Not unless God is working blind, makes Faith not morality the arbiter for heaven and lets evil go ahead without even correcting us when plainly our morality is not up to God's par. And letting evil (if not Satan) loose unchecked. Even Christians try to find signs of God intervening to deliver us from evil, so they know that God should be doing this. But not so it's obvious as that would nullify Faith? Like I say, Faith not morals is the benchmark here. Unquestioning gullibility is what Morality seems to be, both in Eden and Christian morality.

This isn't morality - it is Christian authority claiming everything good for its' own credit and blaming everything bad on man. It is a system for enabling religious authority.

(1) cue; 'God can do as he likes'.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #110

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:29 am [Replying to tam in post #104]

Image

The Bible.
A collection of books...
You seem adverse to my understanding that the way Satan is utilized by God is reflected onto God and can be seen for what it is, by the audience.
I am averse to the assumptions you are making, the utter lack of evidence you are providing for your claims - including the lack of evidence you have provided for everything in this very post... as well as the double-standard you are employing in using the 'bible' to speak of "Satan" to begin with, all the while ignoring the very evidence that book provides about his nature.
I do not have those images you have in your beliefs about Satan
Clearly. You also have not provided evidence to support your claims about Satan.
, and am not accusing anyone, Satan, God or Job, Christ, David Paul or any other entity effected by God.
Accusing them of what? I'm not sure where that comment is coming from.
I am merely saying what the obvious positions are in relation to God and the angels, and Humans.
You are saying what you THINK is obvious, but providing no evidence for it.

More than that, the things you claim have been refuted by the evidence that we do have.
I simply pointed out that there is no mention of Job being consulted on the matter before being cast into the role.
Why are you pointing that out when no one suggested otherwise?
Satan appears to act as the dark side of יהוה and
Evidence please.
apparently the role is temporary
From where do you get this idea?

How you tell it, is no different than how any other Christian tells it.
This does not prove it wrong, William. So this statement is meaningless.
That you hear an encouraging voice you call "Christ" while Joey Knotweed hears a tormentors voice he calls "Cowardly" tells me that you have dealt with your dark side more effectively and made friends with it.

I listen to the TRUTHFUL voice of Christ Jaheshua, who is the Light. Nothing in that implies that I have made friends with some 'dark side'.


I also think it is inappropriate for you to use my friend Joey (peace to you!) in an argument with me. So just don't.
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