CONTRADICTIONS TO FACE IF YOU BELIEVE CHRIST PAID FOR SINS ON THE NEW TESTAMENT CROSS

[Eddie Ramos]

At the heart of the gospel is the death of Jesus Christ which was necessary to atone for sins as demanded by the law of God. And for centuries, it has been believed and still is by most, that Christ's death on the New Testament cross is when that payment was made. Any teaching that even suggests that this was not so, is immediately considered ludicrous and even blasphemous. But God told us that in the last days that he would reveal understanding from His Word that was kept sealed up all this time. And since the scriptures haven't changed, we know that God accomplished the limiting of our understanding the same way he kept it from his disciples when he spoke, what we now consider to be plain words.

Luke 9:44–45 (KJV 1900)
Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. 45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Daniel 12:8–10 (KJV 1900)
And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed ***till*** the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

The "wise" in the scriptures are identified as the true children of God, whereas the wicked are not.

In this debate, I will hold to the position that Christ indeed died to pay for sins, but he did so before the world was created as per the scriptures. And that his birth, death and resurrection was a sign (a manifestation for us to see) pointing to his completed work from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV 1900)
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV 1900)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (through) Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 9:25–26 (KJV 1900)
Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared (manifested) to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I will also present some of the contradictions for examination for anyone who holds to the doctrine that Christ paid for sins on the New Testament cross. NOTE: I'm not saying that the scriptures contain ANY contradictions, because they don't. I'm saying that those who hold to atonement taking place on the N.T. cross face contradictions from the Bible that they must resolve.

If you believe that Christ paid for sins at the N.T. cross, then:

1. How could Christ be called the son of God, before the cross, if that name was given to Christ by him having raised rom the dead?

Romans 1:4 (KJV 1900)
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by (through) the resurrection from the dead:

2. How could Christ forgive sins before dying to pay for them, which would violate his own law?

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (no firgiveness).

Luke 7:48 (KJV 1900)
And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

FYI: Animal sacrifices or any high priestly Old Testament offering, never did anything for sins.

Hebrews 10:4 (KJV 1900)
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Hebrews 10:11 (KJV 1900)
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

3. How could an Old Testament character be saved by grace, if grace "did not come until Christ died on the N.T. cross"? Furthermore, how could Noah be righteous (just) and without blemish (perfect) if Christ had not yet paid for his sins until thousands of years later?

Genesis 6:8–9 (KJV 1900)
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

These questions will be enough to start for now. Thanks

[Revelations won]

Dear Eddie,

Thank you for the several great questions which you posed in your OP.

Your point made from Daniel 12:8-10 is a great example.

“Eddie Ramos wrote: ↑
Sun Aug 21, 2022 4:47 pm
Daniel 12:8–10 (KJV 1900)

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed ***till*** the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.”

It is obvious from the revelation given to Daniel that though all was not given in his day it is very clear that additional revelation to be given in the last days would bring greater clarification to the issues in question.

It seems very obvious that the answer to Daniel’s questions would require latter day revelation to get the full picture.

Perhaps the existing confusion among many is that they have made a “man made” doctrine which rejects any current or future revelation and prophets.

Is it any wonder that so much confusion of doctrine now exists because of this self imposed “gag order” man has placed on their creator?

We should remember that after Christ’s resurrection, that he returned to earth to give the disciples much important instruction pertaining to the kingdom of God. These important teachings were either lost or removed from the Bible, resulting in the loss of this knowledge pertaining thereto.

Also it is very clear that according to the book of Revelation there will also be sent two prophets to Jerusalem that will prophesy and perform great wonders in the last days. Who will perform this mighty work for 3 1/2 years. Thus those who reject any latter day revelation or prophets or revelation have taken a position to reject these two prophets of God also.


Best regards,
RW

[Eddie Ramos]

Dear Eddie,

Thank you for the several great questions which you posed in your OP.

Your point made from Daniel 12:8-10 is a great example.

“Eddie Ramos wrote: ↑
Sun Aug 21, 2022 4:47 pm
Daniel 12:8–10 (KJV 1900)

And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed ***till*** the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.”

It is obvious from the revelation given to Daniel that though all was not given in his day it is very clear that additional revelation to be given in the last days would bring greater clarification to the issues in question.

It seems very obvious that the answer to Daniel’s questions would require latter day revelation to get the full picture.

Perhaps the existing confusion among many is that they have made a “man made” doctrine which rejects any current or future revelation and prophets.

Is it any wonder that so much confusion of doctrine now exists because of this self imposed “gag order” man has placed on their creator?

We should remember that after Christ’s resurrection, that he returned to earth to give the disciples much important instruction pertaining to the kingdom of God. These important teachings were either lost or removed from the Bible, resulting in the loss of this knowledge pertaining thereto.

Also it is very clear that according to the book of Revelation there will also be sent two prophets to Jerusalem that will prophesy and perform great wonders in the last days. Who will perform this mighty work for 3 1/2 years. Thus those who reject any latter day revelation or prophets or revelation have taken a position to reject these two prophets of God also.


Best regards,
RW

I'd like to clarify my position as it doesn't mean what you think it does. The scriptures were completed once God gave his final revelation to mankind, and in the end of his revelation, God made this declaration.

Revelation 22:18–19 (KJV 1900)
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The word "book" is not only referring to what we call "the book" of revelation. This Greek word is our word for "Bible". This same word is used here:

Hebrews 10:7 (KJV 1900)
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

The "book" of Revelation had not been written yet, and yet here it says that Christ comes in the volume of the book, not "of this book". Therefore, we can be sure that Revelation 22:18-19 are a warning against adding or taking away from any part of the completed Word of God. But then how did God plan to give us more revelations in the time of the end without adding to his word? God shows us. In the context of Christ (The Word of God) speaking to his disciples, we see that he makes what we would deem to be a plain statement.

Luke 9:44–45 (KJV 1900)
44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. 45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.

Luke 18:31–34 (KJV 1900)
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. 34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

So, Christ (The Word of God) spoke and yet what he said was hid from their understanding. This is how God has kept anyone from understanding that which has been sealed up till the time of the end. And when the proper time came, we see that just as God opened up the understanding of his disciples to cause them to understand what he had already said, that God has likewise done in this time of the end.

Luke 24:44–45 (KJV 1900)
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

So, the time of God righteous revelation is now in this time of the end. It is in this time that god has opened up our understanding once again, to things that he had already written in the scriptures.

This takes care of us looking elsewhere (outside of the Bible) for more information from God because there is none. As far as end time prophets go, you first have to understand what a prophet is. A prophet is not someone who foretold the future events of his own accord. The Bible defines a prophet as someone who declares the Word of God. This means that anyone and everyone who declares the Word of God is a prophet. This is also why the Bible teaches us to be able to distinguish between prophets who teach the truth and prophets who teach lies.

Matthew 24:11 (KJV 1900)
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

So, because God has placed himself under his own law, we can be sure that he will never violate that which he has told us not to do in His word. He will never again add to his words. Now this of course raises your question about who the two witnesses are in the last days. But we don't have to wonder because the Bible teaches us who they are. The two witnesses are the very Word of God. In the book of Revelation, in the context of the 2 witnesses, God tells us that:

Revelation 11:6 (KJV 1900)
These (2 witnesses) have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

So, these two witnesses have very familiar "powers" that we have read elsewhere in the Bible of Elijah who prayed to God that the heavens would be shut up. And the other is Moses, who turned the waters into blood. In other words, the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah, or to say it another way (as per the Bible) the two witnesses are the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah). And the law and the prophets are a synonym for the Word of God. The problem, as is very common, is that the natural man (including those who think they are saved but is not) can only approach the scriptures and understand it at face value, for what it says. The problem with this is that the Bible is a spiritual book with spiritual truth concealed within the words we read on the surface. And if we pay attention to the scriptures, God has showed us how to arrive at that spiritual truth by comparing spiritual with spiritual in search for complete agreement within the scriptures. So, the 2 witnesses are spiritually pointing to the Word of God which has the power to shut up heaven that it rain not, and no rain has everything to do with no salvation, as God likens the gospel going forth to save as rain.

Joel 2:23–28 (KJV 1900)
23  Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God:
For he hath given you the former rain moderately,
And he will cause to come down for you the rain,
The former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24  And the floors shall be full of wheat,
And the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25  And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten,
The cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm,
My great army which I sent among you.
26  And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied,
And praise the name of the LORD your God,
That hath dealt wondrously with you:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
27  And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
28  And it shall come to pass afterward,
That I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions:

[Eddie Ramos]

The next proof that we can examine that Christ paid for sins (in deed and not in principle) from the foundation of the world has to do with the soul of Christ. God tell sus that he made Christ's soul (not just his body) an offering for sin.

Isaiah 53:7–11 (KJV 1900)
7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
Yet he opened not his mouth:
He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
So he openeth not his mouth.
8  He was taken from prison and from judgment:
And who shall declare his generation?
For he was cut off out of the land of the living:
For the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9  And he made his grave with the wicked,
And with the rich in his death;
Because he had done no violence,
Neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief:
When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
He shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11  He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
For he shall bear their iniquities.

Here we read some peculiar statements regarding Christ's soul and who put him to death (to bruise means to break in pieces, to crush, to destroy), it was JEHOVAH, not man in this case. How can we be sure? Because it was God who saw the travail of his soul when he made it an offering for sin. But when this this happen? Well, since most people believe that it was in 33 Ad, at the New Testament cross, then they would bring up the account in the garden when Jesus prayed and said:

Matthew 26:38 (KJV 1900)
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

But is this the time Christ's soul was made an offering for sin? No, because he still has a living soul within him. But the Bible does speak of another time when Christ's soul was in hell (meaning in the grave/dead), which is what's required to make atonement, actual death, not sorrow unto death.

Psalm 16:10 (KJV 1900)
10  For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell;
Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

In this Psalm, we see that Christ's soul was indeed in hell (dead) for a time, but it was not left there. It was resurrected. But then the problem comes in when we try and apply this verse to the cross of 33 AD because we read that Christ's soul went to heaven that very day his body died.

Luke 23:43 (KJV 1900)
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So then, when was his soul in hell if it wasn't at the time of the cross in 33 AD? The answer is, from the foundation of the world when the actual payment took place. This made what Christ came to do, a manifestation of what already took place. This next scripture tells us that Christ was not like the earthly high priests who offered continual sacrifices, because if Christ was like them, then he must have often suffered since the time of the cross?. NO, since the foundation of the world. God is telling us when Christ (who, not as the high priests) only needed to offer himself once for sins, and this suffering of death is said to have taken place since the foundation of the world, and not the cross of 33 AD.

Hebrews 9:25–26 (KJV 1900)
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

One atoning sacrifice from the foundation of the world, and one manifestation (in the end of the Old Testament era) to demonstrate his atonement for sins. In other words, everything about Christ (his birth, life, death and resurrection) was a sign, and a sign point to the reality. The sign itself is not the reality.

Luke 2:34 (KJV 1900)
And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

Luke 11:30 (KJV 1900)
For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.