The problem of evil

[William]

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?

The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}

[oldbadger]

Based upon the evidence I continue to disagree with that belief system.

........ ok....... and...

It appears that a mindless nature has an anomaly in the nature of mindful humankind, according to your overall belief regarding evil.
From that, would the reader be mistaken to think that - re your beliefs - there is no "Problem of Evil" and that arguments using statements which may begin with "Then there is "The problem of evil"" derive from conjecture, rather than from fact?

Just a sec......... 'in the nature of a mindful mankind'.....?
Mankind is just a more clever animal, imo.
You've seen some of the most amazing animals, so ingenious, and although 'intelligence' tries to waive them all away we don't actually know what any of them are thinking, all our assessments as based upon the most inexact sciences.

The fact that nature (mankind if you must) has some level of mindfulness, this doesn't prove the existence of a tangible real entity called 'evil'.
Some of the prey/victims of the shrike are not dead when it sticks them on to a thorn for safekeeping. I heard utterly dreadful reports on the news this morning about mass torture and murder in Eastern Europe at this time......... I might use the term 'evil' in a sense which I can understand, but an existing entity?......... I just don't believe in that.
If you do then that's fine by me.......

[William]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #171]

The fact that nature (mankind if you must) has some level of mindfulness, this doesn't prove the existence of a tangible real entity called 'evil'.

Tam is the one who believes that evil is personified through Satan [as a real entity]. My thoughts on the matter are reflected in post#3.

[TRANSPONDER]

I don't know whether the Christians are praying for me, or if they are, what they are praying to happen to me, but I continue to Think for them.

And my first Real Girlfriend was a Buddhist. Oh boy. We ended up married.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #169]

It is important to me to be accurate in my posts, and especially in matters that concern my Lord.

Even so, what your beliefs are re biblical Jesus, is not important to the OP subject whether biblical characters are treated as fictional or not as it doesn't matter if it is the one or the other, or even a mix of both. We are discussing biblical narrative, [re OP] not any particular Christian belief or interpretation of biblical narrative, over any other.

You are missing or avoiding the point. I had asked you upon what you based your ideas of the Adversary/Satan/devil. You said the bible, and the bible includes the NT.

I have not argued otherwise. I am simply noting any differences in the two presentations of the different cultures [Greek/Roman and Hebrew].

I told you from the start that I was simply responding to someone else's comment about the account in Job.

The account in Job simply shows that the Adversary is the cause of some suffering.

And this has not been denied by me. Rather, I pointed out that the Adversary - as far as Hebrew understanding is, part of what YHWH uses and any suffering of humans caused by such adversity is obviously less important - secondary - to the primary interactions between YHWH and that which YHWH created for the purpose of causing adversity re humans.


__________________

Well we can agree that no deals were done.

For differing reasons, yes. We do not agree on the reason no deals were done.

I'm not interested in watching youtube videos to comment upon, sorry.

Nonetheless, it is evidence presented as part of the debate. Your personal lack of interest isn't appropriate to that end as it gives the reader a strong impression that you are not interested in another's [in this case - Jewish] perspective.

I know how some Jewish perspectives differ on the subject of "Satan".

I am simply not interested in watching youtube videos.

I am unaware of what your knowledge consists of and whether the video I linked didn't have information within it, which you already know.

With the video I linked in post#160 I also provided a time stamp [RTS =8:55] to help the reader navigate to the pertinent part of the perspective under examination.

In that, I quoted a comment from the link

A Jewish perspective on why YHWH allowed the rise of Christianity and Islam to happen.
Rabbi: This all plays into GODs Plan to bring about the ultimate harmonization and realization of the spreading of truth to the entire world

I noticed that you also gave no comment re that. Can I assume that you also have no interest in even reading Jewish perspectives on the matter?

I have already read (and so understand) Jewish perspectives on the matter (well, some perspectives at least, since I am sure there are various perspectives among that religion, just as with any other religion).

But you and I were having a conversation supposedly based upon the bible. The bible includes the NT.

I quoted the comment from the video pertinent to my argument. I have no indication from you, that you understand it.

You were asked to explain the similarities of the metaphor being used to describe what you refer to as two opposing enemies [YHWH & Satan] {SOURCE}

Your reply;

Yeah, I don't make a connection between them.

Obviously there is a connection between them "I Am LION, Hear Me ROAR!"

Just because someone (and others) are described to do something 'like a lion' does not mean that they are the same person. Christ is also described as the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

Nor does it mean they are not.
More to the point I am making, it is Satan being described as a roaring lion, which up until then, was a biblical description of YHWH.

There are some options to consider re that. One such option being;

~The writer using the roaring devouring lion to analogize Satan, was unaware that YHWH had already been analogized in that way, and thus would have not comprehended the ripple effect of his use of the same analogy for his version of Satan.~

But Christ is one person. His Father is another person. The Adversary is another person altogether. And of course Christ is the Truth; whereas the Adversary is a liar and the father of lies.

Which - if the option I mentioned, is the correct one, means that you have been misinformed by the writer.

As you may or may not know, the Jewish perception of the Hebrew culture and accompanying beliefs about YHWH [as GOD] was that they did not have the notion that GOD had enemies.
Their notion was that YHWH used what humans think of as "Good/Evil" as YHWH saw fit to do, and the only enemy/adversary/accuser anyone had to concern their selves about, was YHWH.

Some people are described as being 'as strong as an ox' but that doesn't make them the same person.

That is besides the points I am arguing Tammy. I am being specific re beings who are not Human...
You are arguing that Satan is an enemy of YHWH. I am arguing that the OT part of the Bible at least, begs to differ.
If the one who wrote of Satan in that vehicular, knew that he was using YHWH's lion-analogy for the mortal enemy of Christianity, he would have been doing so purposefully to make it clear that he at least, thought of the God of the Jews - YHWH - as being Satan - his "enemy of Christ/Christians"

I did not write the material under question. The connection was not made by me.

1Peter 5:8 "Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."

YHWH: I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

[the connection emphasized]

what do you THINK it is saying.

My interests lay elsewhere - in the observation that the 1Peter version enlists the metaphor applied [attributed] to YHWH, long before the writer of 1Peter then applies it to the [so-called] Enemy of Christianity [Satan].

Coupling that fact with words attributed to biblical Jesus saying to religious Jews that;

Biblical Jesus: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

...one could be forgiven for thinking that Jesus was referring to YHWH...

That is what I thought you were implying. I will suggest that the only way one could think that Christ was referring to His Father there would be if one was looking for that connection and ignoring the evidence that refutes that connection.

I am not implying anything, nor am I ignoring evidence. I am comparing the evidence as it presents.

From the same account:

I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.” Christ makes a distinction between His Father and their father.

But if that is not clear enough for you, then here is the rest of the context that clearly separates God (the Father of Christ), from the devil:

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

42 [Jesus] said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

Jesus' mention of the accuser being their father is because of their accusations. They were deferring to Satan rather than to YHWH. They [Jesus included] would have understood it in that way, rather than in the way the Christianities evolved it into the mythology you are arguing for.

William: Also, please explain why YHWH had no doubts about Job and was confident the accuser would not sway Job, but did have doubts with Adam and was not confident Adam could not be swayed...since that is what we are told happened - Adam was swayed - and we can assume that YHWH knew Adam would fail as surely as YHWH knew Job would not.

He knew the people involved. What is in them; the inside of the cup. Nothing is hidden from Him.

Therefore requiring an explanation as to why YHWH would create a being [Adam] and place said being within an environment where YHWH knew that being would fail the test of the Adversary.

The environment is existence. To not create Adam would have been to judge him for something he had not even chosen to do yet;

If Adam was NOT created, then there would be no Adam for YHWH to judge. One cannot judge no one for doing no thing.

it would have been like giving him the death penalty for something that is not unforgivable.

Not at all. Something which never lived, cannot be put to death.

To not create Adam would have meant all who came from Adam (and Eve) would not have existed either.

This is more to the point I am making re the environment. YHWH's agenda is clear re human existence and what YHWH wants to accomplish through Human's re the environment.
This includes humans having to discover and categorize things, tame the wild, and reach for the stars...
Things which continue to be done even to present day.

Yet God foreknew many of them. He loves those who came from Adam (such as Abel, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc, etc.) Plus, God knows how it ALL turns out. Not just the stumbling, the suffering in the here and now, but the END to suffering (and death), and the eternal life that follows.

Thus, even Satan has his role to play re all that. The difference is that in your mind, Satan is YHWH's enemy, whereas in the mind of ancient Hebrews, this was never the case.

From the Rabbi's perspective, this is all well and good and casts no shadow upon the good nature of YHWH, because YHWH knows what He is doing and there are no enemies of YHWH and all serve YHWH's agenda, whether some actively understand that they do so or not;

An enemy can serve someone's agenda without realizing it.

Just as a friend can serve someone's agenda through realizing it. Both arguments cancel each other out.

Can you show any OT scripture which identifies that Satan is YHWH's enemy and was unaware that he is serving YHWH's agenda without realizing it?

Re Satan.
He has intimate understanding of the role He plays in the service of YHWH and it wasn't Satan who made Christians despise Jews.

I am a Christian and I do not despise Jews.

But of course you are talking about religion, and so you might want to consider that Jews first persecuted those Jews who accepted Christ (at the behest of religion/religious leaders); then later some of those who professed to be Christian (something anyone can profess to be; though it does not mean that they ARE what they claim), persecuted the Jews (also at the behest or encouragement/approval of religion/religious leaders, starting with the fledgling RCC and continuing).

Religion does not get its authority from Christ though. If people had been listening to Christ instead of to religion (which teaches many lies and misleads many people), then they should have been doing what He commanded: bless those who curse you; forgive; do good to those who wrong you; do not judge and you will not be judged; be merciful and you will be merciful. Christ did not persecute anyone; execute anyone (He GAVE His life); and though He could have asked 'eye for eye' - according to the law that the religious leaders claimed to uphold - instead He asked that they be forgiven.

You present as being just another religious individual Tam, even that you deny that you are, you always revert to religious interpretation of doctrine, even that you deny doing so. You believe in the doctrine of Satan as presented by the Christian religion, even that you may not have adopted the actual imagery [mentioned in post#101]

Even the words you believe in re Christianity's take on Satan;

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Then should not this daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be released from her bondage on the Sabbath day?”

And the great dragon was hurled down— that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

...create images to which you clearly consent to as being "from Christ" because biblical Jesus is attributed with being the one saying the words, according to your own professed beliefs.


Jesus also preached forgiveness because he would have realized too, that eventually - re the problem of evil - humans would have to forgive YHWH for utilizing Satan in YHWH's overall agenda and occasional interaction with Humans.

Christians despising Jews and Christians making a scape-goat out of an Angelic Being and pointing to Satan as the reason why the world is evil - saying to the world "never mind our evil - LOOK at the real reason for WHY evil exists!" - there is a "kind of magic" in this slight of hand type proselytizing but ultimately any claim of truth in it, is subject to scrutiny/questionable and thus, why such threads as these exist.

This has nothing to do with anything I have said.

Except that you are guilty by association re your belief that YHWH has enemies.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to oldbadger in post #171]

The fact that nature (mankind if you must) has some level of mindfulness, this doesn't prove the existence of a tangible real entity called 'evil'.

Tam is the one who believes that evil is personified through Satan [as a real entity]. My thoughts on the matter are reflected in post#3.

Please don't speak for me William. The being known as Satan is a real being. But I do not think that evil is personified through him.


And oldbadger (peace to you!), I have not forgotten your post. I can't remember if there is much more to add, or if we have simply reached a state where we have communicated and hopefully understood one better. As for your question 'what do I think should happen to the adulterer'... that would be between them and their spouse. Beyond the natural consequences that come with having committed adultery (pain for the spouse, the family, children; shame; reputation in possible ruins with friends as well), the only things I think should happen would be separation and/or divorce.

(A Christian would do well to remember Christ's words about forgiving, even if just for one's own inner peace, but that does not mean you must remain married to your unfaithful spouse. You are free to remain and you are also free to divorce.)



Peace again.

[oldbadger]

Tam is the one who believes that evil is personified through Satan [as a real entity]. My thoughts on the matter are reflected in post#3.

For sure.
I can acknowledge such beliefs in others, just don't hold to them myself.

[William]

Tam is the one who believes that evil is personified through Satan [as a real entity]. My thoughts on the matter are reflected in post#3.

For sure.
I can acknowledge such beliefs in others, just don't hold to them myself.

Well I am happy that it isn't just me who gets the impression Tam was arguing that Satan is real and evil.

[oldbadger]

Peace to you,

And oldbadger (peace to you!), I have not forgotten your post. I can't remember if there is much more to add, or if we have simply reached a state where we have communicated and hopefully understood one better. As for your question 'what do I think should happen to the adulterer'... that would be between them and their spouse. Beyond the natural consequences that come with having committed adultery (pain for the spouse, the family, children; shame; reputation in possible ruins with friends as well), the only things I think should happen would be separation and/or divorce.

(A Christian would do well to remember Christ's words about forgiving, even if just for one's own inner peace, but that does not mean you must remain married to your unfaithful spouse. You are free to remain and you are also free to divorce.)

Peace again.

Hello Tam,
Your answer, above, more or less mirrors the law where I live........ adultery can be forgiven and a couple just carry on, on there can be separation/divorce with lawful separation of property and agreements over who looks after and who visits any children. Many couples don't bother with marriage at all and simply live in trust. But thousands of years ago adultery was deadly dangerous and a community riddled with it was not safe from the spreading of deadly disease. I that that is what made adultery so abhorred, like breaking food rules.....dangerous.

I thought of a question to ask you, I get the impression that you do not belong to a congregation or church, many which proselytize or want to convert pagans to Christianity. Some still knock on doors to promote their faith...... do you promote your particular faith to people or do you just live it yourself, quietly?

Peace to you

[Bust Nak]

Your post is a waste of time and not worth an answer, and that isn't getting at you. It is not your fault...

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[oldbadger]

I don't know whether the Christians are praying for me, or if they are, what they are praying to happen to me, but I continue to Think for them.

And my first Real Girlfriend was a Buddhist. Oh boy. We ended up married.

On the side........... how long have you been married to your Buddhist wife?