I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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InThePottersChamber
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I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

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Post by InThePottersChamber »

Hi all

Firstly let me clarify, I am not homosexual. I became interested in figuring out if it is a sin or not because I find that gay people are smarter, kinder, and just really good and fun friends generally. I also know that a lot of them want to know God, but are afraid of being shunned by the church so they stay away. They also suffer from hate crimes and bullying, and it is this that make them kill themselves, not because they are 'spiritually dirty/disturbed', like a lot of Christians like to say.

I won't list down all the pro lgbtq theology, I'm sure we all are quite well versed in them, and if you aren't a quick google search can lead you to several articles and books that will inform you well enough. You can start with the infamous Matthew Vines, but there are also other authors whom I think are more convincing than him. I have to admit I've only read two books on this, and I'm sure I will be even more convinced if I took the time to read more, including non theology books about history and culture of the Greeks at the time the bible is set in.

But I will list down some points that I find particularly convincing.

1. What we know about gender through science, anthropology and sociology is that it is a very complicated thing. Our knowledge about the human body is very nascent, science has a long way to go. It is not just about what genitals you are born with, but also what goes on inside the brain. There may be infinitely more proofs that homosexual people are born the way they are, whether in chromosomes, genes, or otherwise.
1a. When Jesus said marriage was between a man and a woman, what if science discovers one day something new about why some women are more 'manly', others are more 'womanly', it is a spectrum, what if Jesus meant something more than what genitals we are born with?

2. The word, concept and understanding of Homosexuality was coined by the Germans, but they didn't use the term in the bible until recently, and it is only because this new version was sponsored by an American company.

3. The word arsenokoitai was a new word coined by A. Paul, and it was sandwiched between two other words which meant male prostitute and male pimp respectively, so most likely it meant men who bought male prostitutes, or men who indulged in homosexual sex outside of a loving and committed relationship. Heterosexuals are also not allowed to indulge in sex outside of a loving and committed relationship.

4. The bible never addressed issues about intersex people, does that mean that these people are sinful too because some of them have two reproductive organs and they can choose, in most cases, which gender they want to live as?

5. I don't believe Ruth and Naomi, or David and Jonathan were homosexuals, like many pro lgbtq proponents claim, but that doesn't mean a lot of their points aren't valid. the conservative church disagrees on many small things, but overall it agrees about the same values. Doesn't mean they are different religions or that they need to separate from one another, or that the whole religion of Christianity is fake.

The bible has been used to justify and even support slavery, racism, racial segregation, and the oppression of women and the poor. Isn't this history repeating itself, but this time to a different type of minority?

Extra points I would like to add are: A lot of people can detect a homosexual among heterosexuals, much like the way we can tell a man from a woman. Isn't this extra proof that they're to an extent born that way? It's like we know Christianity isn't a schizophrenic's fantasy because every Christian believes and experiences roughly the same thing.

Some people say, well, even homosexuals know they are sinful. To this I'd like to share an experience I had with a lesbian friend. She one day told me, "I know I am sinful because when I think of marrying a man I don't feel desperate and heartbroken, but when I think of marrying a woman I feel like I'm in a dark desperate place, I really really want it." For me, at that time, that was to me, solid proof, in fact, THE proof that homosexuality was sinful. For some background info, I've always told this friend every time we met that her sexual orientation was sinful and encouraged her to overcome it through prayer and fasting. But when I prayed for discernment, I immediately realised: Of course she wouldn't feel desperate for a marriage to a man. She wasn't attracted to them. Of course she would feel desperate when she thought about women, she was attracted to them. a LOT of people who are attracted to the opposite sex feel the same way my lesbian friend feels, desperate because they don't think they can attract a spouse, but it doesn't mean God is calling them to turn homosexual.

I prayed for wisdom and discernment for a very long time before I came to the conclusion that homosexuality isn't a sin. For a long time I believed strongly it was a sin, but the evidence against that belief is just too damning.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

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Post by Difflugia »

InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 amFirstly let me clarify, I am not homosexual.
Good. We can trust your opinions about Christianity because you're not among the others.
InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 amWhat we know about gender through science, anthropology and sociology is that it is a very complicated thing.
We know about many things through science, anthropology, and sociology that are far more compilcated than religious tradition would have us believe. This is the tip of the iceberg.
InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 ambut the evidence against that belief is just too damning.
This applies to so much more of religion in general and Christianity in particular than just gender and sexuality. Keep going. Step into the light.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

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Post by InThePottersChamber »

[Replying to Difflugia in post #2]

You're encouraging me to abandon my belief in Christianity. I have gone through a LONG route pertaining to that issue. In the end, there are too many things that have happened in my life that it is not possible for me to relinquish my belief in the Christian God. I made this post targeting the conservative Christians, and unlike the agnostics and atheists I believe science and religion can co-exist, and even support one another.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #4

Post by Miles »

InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 am Hi all
I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin
Well god does, which, for those who believe in him, has to be meaningful.

So, as to sin, it should first be defined so everyone's on the same page. In the Bible one reads:


1 John 5:17

All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.

Romans 14:23
But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.


Matthew 12:31-32
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.


Not very helpful when it comes to the specifics, so looking at what others have to say about sin.


sin1
/sin/
noun: sin; plural noun: sins
an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
source: Oxford Languages Dictionary

_____________________________________

"The Christian definition of sin is purposely disobeying the rules of God (1 John 3:4)
source:.crosswalk.com

_____________________________________


Sin is acting or behaving in a way that does not conform with God’s character or commands.
source: thegospelcoalition.org


It appears a sin is pretty much doing what god doesn't want a person to do, be it breaking a law, rule, or command of his; or a simple act of disobedience.


Okay, with that in mind, on to the issue of homosexuality and what god thinks of it. O:)

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality.

1 Timothy 1:10
The sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, . . . .

Romans 1:27
And the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

So, sex between two men being an abomination worthy of death, unrighteous, immoral, and a shameless act I think it's fair to say god considers it a sin, but don't think practicing homosexual women get off from being condemned by god, they don't, but with far less consequences than the death sentence god pronounced upon men in Leviticus 20:13 above.

Romans 1:26
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature.


Please note that evidently god doesn't give a whizz about having homosexual affections, attractions, or desires, just don't physically act on them. Wanting to touch pee pees is fine, just don't actually touch pee pees.


.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

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Post by InThePottersChamber »

[Replying to Miles in post #4]

I literally listen down a few points why I think it isn't a sin, but instead of addressing them you just made your own argument.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

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Post by brunumb »

InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 am What we know about gender through science, anthropology and sociology is that it is a very complicated thing. Our knowledge about the human body is very nascent, science has a long way to go. It is not just about what genitals you are born with, but also what goes on inside the brain. There may be infinitely more proofs that homosexual people are born the way they are, whether in chromosomes, genes, or otherwise.
This clip is very enlightening in that regard.

George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

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Post by InThePottersChamber »

[Replying to brunumb in post #6]

Hi thanks so much for the video, it is very informative. I am sure there is even MORE evidence than what the video provides, that we will discover in a later age. I hope that whoever sees my post will watch the video you linked as well, it really proves my point.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

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Post by Miles »

InThePottersChamber wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:29 am [Replying to Miles in post #4]

I literally listen down a few points why I think it isn't a sin, but instead of addressing them you just made your own argument.
Yup, because this is a debate forum and I didn't find your listed 5+ points worthy of debate so I disregarded them. While they convince you, I don't see personal reasons as debatable issues, therefore I looked at your title pronouncement "I don't think homosexuality is a sin", and found it worth addressing: While you may not think homosexuality is a sin, others do, including your own god, which I figured would be an important point to bring up---disagreeing with one's own god is pretty brazen.

So, am I wrong here, that it is quite important what your god thinks, perhaps even more so than what you think?

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

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Post by InThePottersChamber »

[Replying to Miles in post #8]

To be frank, they aren't personal points. And as for your little argument, I don't think they are worthy of debate as well. There are a dozen of talks, books, articles on why your argument is wrong. And these people have devoted their lives to this cause. It's not my job to educate you on everything, and I don't see the point, as you obviously won't take no for an answer, but you could start with



There is part one somewhere as well, and you can take a look at her book (I know you won't) if you like. All the best in your quest for knowledge!

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

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Post by Miles »

InThePottersChamber wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 1:34 pm [Replying to Miles in post #8]

To be frank, they aren't personal points. And as for your little argument, I don't think they are worthy of debate as well.
Then how about simply answering the one question I asked. Surely you can do that.

So, am I wrong here, that it is quite important that your god thinks homosexual sex is a sin, perhaps even more so than what you think?


There are a dozen of talks, books, articles on why your argument is wrong.
Books explaining why god finds homosexual sex is not sin?? Very possibly, particularly by those who purposely choose to ignore what he has said about it in Leviticus 20:13

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Along with various other passages in the Bible that lambast it. And while we're talking about homosexual sex, how do YOU explain god's judgement and command in Leviticus 20:13?

but you could start with [Kathy Baldcock, video]
Why should I care what Kathy Baldcock has to say about god's attitude toward homosexual sex? Does she have any kind of college degree in religious studies? How about a simple college degree? OR How about a high school degree? Does she have even one of those? After failing to find anything at all about her background, as far as I can tell all she has is opinions, as does everyone else.

And these people have devoted their lives to this cause. It's not my job to educate you on everything, and I don't see the point, as you obviously won't take no for an answer,
What is it you answered "No" to that I won't take?

.

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