Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[brunumb]

You have watched revelation 13 for years.
A prophecy from daniel pointed to revelation 6 being 1914--It said 2520 years from the removal of the last king in Jerusalem--607 bce that occurred so 607 -2520= 1914--And at rev 6 it says he will receive his crown= Jesus is the only one getting the crown, but Michael was named as the rider of that white horse, it was the war in heaven, satan and his angels lost and were cast to the earth. Notice in Rev 6 and peace was taken from the earth = not a single war but a world war ww1 proving the accuracy of that prophecy in Daniel occurring in 1914. Satan came angry knowing his time was short. He filled mens hearts with hatred thus ww1, Millions slaughtered, after ww1 millions upon millions died of the things mentioned of the other 3 riders of Rev 6. We are over 100 years past that in the book of revelation. Its nearing the end.

Please tell us more about that war in heaven. Did they use light sabres or just hand to hand combat? When the losers were cast to Earth, did they transform from spirit beings to material beings? Where did they go and where are they residing now? WW1 was a big deal and it was amazing that it coincided with prophecy, but what about WW2? That was an even bigger event, but how come no prophet saw that one coming? Revelation is just a fantasy. Pretty much the Marvel comic book of its day.

[TRANSPONDER]

This is something we learn (or should) about prophets - they make a procecy that is going to happen 'soon' and it doesn't so, after attempts to say it is happenning right now but we don't see it and eventually people stop believing it, they go quiet...and then come up with another one. I have been keeping track since I began on my former board about 2010 of prophetic claims and NONE of them from the Blood moon to the Maya calendar have panned out.

I particularly loathed the one that came out predicting the earthquake splitting America, somehow coinciding with an eclipse. I particularly loathed the smarmy grin of the prophet as he promised destruction before leading people into delusionary prayer. Of course, after attempts to spin it as happening any week now...it went silent and I suppose forgotten. Not by me. I have a rather long 'Hate list' with Televangelists at the top but fake prophets rank very high too.

I'm not going to dwell on our JW pedding visitor, because she or he might have been sold a bill of goods by their lying priests and haven't bothered to research; but that garbage doesn't stand up to scrutiny in particular. That mispresentation of a prophecy - that- wasn't as an undeniable true fact on which to hang a garbage -bag of perfect fantasy (your talk of light sabres wasn't far wrong) is long since discredited and it is a bit of an insult that they think to dump that sludge on us. Except that they may have been sold this tripe on the doorstep and believed it. If so, we have disabused him or her and they should thank us, but I doubt they will.


p.s I gotta admit, I am specially steamed because there was that Slight Shock 'Gosh! Did they really nail that prophecy?' Just for a moment. Then I thought 'can't trust 'em', and if that's accurate...why don't we get it pushed in our face? So a quick check showed it was not too far from the fairway and (in usual evangelical subterfuge) they claimed it was a hole in one. Hoping that we won't know better. And this effort to scam us is steaming me up again.

[kjw47]

You have watched revelation 13 for years.
A prophecy from daniel pointed to revelation 6 being 1914--It said 2520 years from the removal of the last king in Jerusalem--607 bce that occurred so 607 -2520= 1914--And at rev 6 it says he will receive his crown= Jesus is the only one getting the crown, but Michael was named as the rider of that white horse, it was the war in heaven, satan and his angels lost and were cast to the earth.

Please present something other'n the book making the claims by which we may confirm this tale.

Notice in Rev 6 and peace was taken from the earth = not a single war but a world war ww1 proving the accuracy of that prophecy in Daniel occurring in 1914. Satan came angry knowing his time was short. He filled mens hearts with hatred thus ww1, Millions slaughtered, after ww1 millions upon millions died of the things mentioned of the other 3 riders of Rev 6. We are over 100 years past that in the book of revelation. Its nearing the end.

Where have you established this Satan feller existed, and where have you established, beyond the book making the claims, that he did as you say?

The liar lies, and the preacher preaches.

And 99% live in darkness. God reveals himself to those who love him and obey him. Not in sight but in other ways.

[kjw47]

Creation proves he exists.

How so?

In the OT those bible writers taught things about earth and outer space no one could know back then. Some of the things werent proven to be truth, by man until the 1800,s. The Prophet Isaiah foretold that a man named Cyrus would bring Babylon down 200 years prior to that occurrence.
And the biggest one of all--all have watched revelation passing before their eyes for well over 100 years. Its getting close to the end.

Please present some means of confirming this, without referring to a book written after the 'fact'.

You have watched revelation 13 for years.
A prophecy from daniel pointed to revelation 6 being 1914--It said 2520 years from the removal of the last king in Jerusalem--607 bce that occurred so 607 -2520= 1914--And at rev 6 it says he will receive his crown= Jesus is the only one getting the crown, but Michael was named as the rider of that white horse, it was the war in heaven, satan and his angels lost and were cast to the earth. Notice in Rev 6 and peace was taken from the earth = not a single war but a world war ww1 proving the accuracy of that prophecy in Daniel occurring in 1914. Satan came angry knowing his time was short. He filled mens hearts with hatred thus ww1, Millions slaughtered, after ww1 millions upon millions died of the things mentioned of the other 3 riders of Rev 6. We are over 100 years past that in the book of revelation. Its nearing the end.

Daniel has been shown to be Retrospective prophecy'. written after the event, getting the Babylonian events a bit off the record, but the events of the Seleucid wars are correct in the events (even meticulous), presented in prophetic terms, being matchable to the history, the prophecy finally going wrong regarding the events about the 2nd c B.C. This is pretty compelling evidence that the Daniel prophecy was written shortly before the Maccabean revolt (and i reckon is a propaganda for revolt of the time, and is not a real prophecy. There is evidence that Biblical prophecy often works that way, writing the history afterwards to look like prophecy.

I can't speak to the prophecy of 1914, but one thing I've learned in debating with Bible -apologogists is never take their claims at face value.

Ok Wiki has this to say.

"The second failure in 1881 precipitated a more serious crisis in the Bible Student ranks and for several years Russell's followers waited for the belated translation to occur.[5] Russell's chronological timetable had already identified 1914 as the ultimate end of the "time of trouble", and this preserved the commitment of followers who might have been discouraged by their failed expectations for 1881.[13] Yet many members found it inconceivable that their earthly departure might be delayed that long."

So it seems that the lucky coincidence of 1914 being mentioned was tweaked in what you presented as predicting the start of the trouble, but in fact was claimed as the culmination, which didn't happen either as the end of the war or the End times. So you have tried to bamboozle us, sunshine.

Yes Mr Russell confused the war in heaven to be Armageddon--But his unvailing the prophecy of 1914 was still correct. No other on earth saw Rev 6 to be 1914.

[POI]

God reveals himself to those who love him and obey him. Not in sight but in other ways.

Well then, you have just contradicted the Bible. 'Sal of Tarsus' did not love and obey him. And yet, 'god/Jesus' revealed himself to him. Thus, you are wrong.

And what do you mean by, "Not in sight but in other ways"??? How do you know it is god, and you are not mistaken?

BTW: Still awaiting a real response to post 183?

[kjw47]

God reveals himself to those who love him and obey him. Not in sight but in other ways.

Well then, you have just contradicted the Bible. 'Sal of Tarsus' did not love and obey him. And yet, 'god/Jesus' revealed himself to him. Thus, you are wrong.

And what do you mean by, "Not in sight but in other ways"??? How do you know it is god, and you are not mistaken?

BTW: Still awaiting a real response to post 183?

Actually Saul was very zealous for what he believed was Gods will against the christians. Jesus turned that zealousness to work for him instead of against him. And God will interfere with free will if it benefits his true followers, not always bit sometimes he did. Like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendego thrown into a firey furnace, God interfered with that free will and saved them.

[POI]

God reveals himself to those who love him and obey him. Not in sight but in other ways.

Well then, you have just contradicted the Bible. 'Sal of Tarsus' did not love and obey him. And yet, 'god/Jesus' revealed himself to him. Thus, you are wrong.

And what do you mean by, "Not in sight but in other ways"??? How do you know it is god, and you are not mistaken?

BTW: Still awaiting a real response to post 183?

Actually Saul was very zealous for what he believed was Gods will against the christians. Jesus turned that zealousness to work for him instead of against him. And God will interfere with free will if it benefits his true followers, not always bit sometimes he did. Like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendego thrown into a firey furnace, God interfered with that free will and saved them.

Interesting...

So is your argument A), B), or both?

A) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him?

B) God only reveals himself to the ones who he knows will then follow?

BTW: I'm still awaiting a proper response to post 183? Is that going to happen? We can start with your claim about 'creation'.

[TRANSPONDER]

Creation proves he exists.

How so?

In the OT those bible writers taught things about earth and outer space no one could know back then. Some of the things werent proven to be truth, by man until the 1800,s. The Prophet Isaiah foretold that a man named Cyrus would bring Babylon down 200 years prior to that occurrence.
And the biggest one of all--all have watched revelation passing before their eyes for well over 100 years. Its getting close to the end.

Please present some means of confirming this, without referring to a book written after the 'fact'.

You have watched revelation 13 for years.
A prophecy from daniel pointed to revelation 6 being 1914--It said 2520 years from the removal of the last king in Jerusalem--607 bce that occurred so 607 -2520= 1914--And at rev 6 it says he will receive his crown= Jesus is the only one getting the crown, but Michael was named as the rider of that white horse, it was the war in heaven, satan and his angels lost and were cast to the earth. Notice in Rev 6 and peace was taken from the earth = not a single war but a world war ww1 proving the accuracy of that prophecy in Daniel occurring in 1914. Satan came angry knowing his time was short. He filled mens hearts with hatred thus ww1, Millions slaughtered, after ww1 millions upon millions died of the things mentioned of the other 3 riders of Rev 6. We are over 100 years past that in the book of revelation. Its nearing the end.

Daniel has been shown to be Retrospective prophecy'. written after the event, getting the Babylonian events a bit off the record, but the events of the Seleucid wars are correct in the events (even meticulous), presented in prophetic terms, being matchable to the history, the prophecy finally going wrong regarding the events about the 2nd c B.C. This is pretty compelling evidence that the Daniel prophecy was written shortly before the Maccabean revolt (and i reckon is a propaganda for revolt of the time, and is not a real prophecy. There is evidence that Biblical prophecy often works that way, writing the history afterwards to look like prophecy.

I can't speak to the prophecy of 1914, but one thing I've learned in debating with Bible -apologogists is never take their claims at face value.

Ok Wiki has this to say.

"The second failure in 1881 precipitated a more serious crisis in the Bible Student ranks and for several years Russell's followers waited for the belated translation to occur.[5] Russell's chronological timetable had already identified 1914 as the ultimate end of the "time of trouble", and this preserved the commitment of followers who might have been discouraged by their failed expectations for 1881.[13] Yet many members found it inconceivable that their earthly departure might be delayed that long."

So it seems that the lucky coincidence of 1914 being mentioned was tweaked in what you presented as predicting the start of the trouble, but in fact was claimed as the culmination, which didn't happen either as the end of the war or the End times. So you have tried to bamboozle us, sunshine.

Yes Mr Russell confused the war in heaven to be Armageddon--But his unvailing the prophecy of 1914 was still correct. No other on earth saw Rev 6 to be 1914.

Look, when he got everything wrong other than the date -1914 as the end of the trouble rather than the start, I have to suppose that it was a lucky coincidence. Even if we supposed that the veil slipped and he got a vision of a war with 1914 in neon hovering over the vision, the rest is wrong so cannot be trusted, can it? And since then as I recall every other prophecy has failed, `despite one or two trying to make the Fulfilment ongoing over decades if not hundreds of years.

[TRANSPONDER]

God reveals himself to those who love him and obey him. Not in sight but in other ways.

Well then, you have just contradicted the Bible. 'Sal of Tarsus' did not love and obey him. And yet, 'god/Jesus' revealed himself to him. Thus, you are wrong.

And what do you mean by, "Not in sight but in other ways"??? How do you know it is god, and you are not mistaken?

BTW: Still awaiting a real response to post 183?

Actually Saul was very zealous for what he believed was Gods will against the christians. Jesus turned that zealousness to work for him instead of against him. And God will interfere with free will if it benefits his true followers, not always bit sometimes he did. Like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendego thrown into a firey furnace, God interfered with that free will and saved them.

Interesting...

So is your argument A), B), or both?

A) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him?

B) God only reveals himself to the ones who he knows will then follow?

BTW: I'm still awaiting a proper response to post 183? Is that going to happen? We can start with your claim about 'creation'.

This is the sort of thing that contradicts the explanations (or excuses) of Bible and Christian apologists. Why can't God DO something about all the problems? Because it would interfere in human Free Will. But God stomped over Saul's Free Will big time, pretty much in his face forcing him to recant, convert and become the founder of Christianity. Really, Like Frodo Baggins, Saul was the Only person who could establish Christianity? It's rather like the witnesses to the Resurrection - that was the best that God could arrange?

I know - the believers will find any excuse or denial enough for them to reject all doubt and they reckon they Won. I say that dismissing evidence,ignoring logic and relying on Faith doesn't convince me and I am further convinced that Bible apologetics have no real substance. As usual, it is a question of having the better case counts for nothing if nobody gets to hear it, and Bible apologetics are aimed at ensuring that nobody does and only Christian propaganda gets heard.

P.s Pharaoaha wossname had his free will stomped on just so God could show off a bit. And ewven Jesus neighbours at Nazareth got frozen like living statues so that Jesus could walk away from certain death.

[William]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #199]

But God stomped over Saul's Free Will big time, pretty much in his face forcing him to recant, convert and become the founder of Christianity.

"Free Will" is nothing much to crow about..."Visions" show that to be the case.