Are atheists theists?

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Are atheists theists?

Post #1

Post by Inquirer »

A recent discussion of a definition of "atheism" in this thread, brings up the view that to define atheism this way seems to lead to the fact that an atheist must also be a theist.

The definition borrows from the popular Flewsian definition, by use of the concept of an "absence of belief" that some proposition is true, as the sole criteria for one being an atheist.

Here is Tcg's proposed definition (the proposition part is red for clarity)
"Atheism is the condition of not believing that a God or deity exists."
But if we are prepared to accept such a definition then we can define theism as:
"Theism is the condition of not believing that a God or deity doesn't exist."
Now the Flewsian atheist is not a traditional atheist, the traditional atheist asserts, believes, that there is no God.

The Flewsian atheist does not assert that, which means that they fit the definition of theist given above.

Therefore a (Flewsian) atheist is also a theist.

The only way to escape this is to argue that "absence of belief that God exists" is insufficient to define atheism (this contradiction vanishes when we use the traditional, established definition).

So are atheists also theists? if not, why not?

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Re: Are atheists theists?

Post #31

Post by William »

[Replying to Kylie in post #30]
I am an agnostic atheist, which tells you that while I lack a belief in God, I do not claim to know for a fact that God is non-existent.
According to the model I am using, your position translates to Other.

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Re: Are atheists theists?

Post #32

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:13 am [Replying to Kylie in post #30]
I am an agnostic atheist, which tells you that while I lack a belief in God, I do not claim to know for a fact that God is non-existent.
According to the model I am using, your position translates to Other.
So you and I both fall into the same category.

A person comes up to us. "Hi, William, hi, Kylie, how would you describe your position re God?"

William: "I would describe my position as other."

Kylie: "I would also describe my position as other."

Person: "I can conclude that your beliefs are very similar then."

And yet my beliefs are not the same as your beliefs. There is the problem with your model.

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Re: Are atheists theists?

Post #33

Post by William »

[Replying to Kylie in post #32]
So you and I both fall into the same category.
According to the description you gave.
A person comes up to us. "Hi, William, hi, Kylie, how would you describe your position re God?"
I would describe my position as having no beliefs either way on the question of God.

Kylie: "I would also describe my position the same as William's."

Person: "According to Williams model, I can conclude that you both are Other then."
And yet my beliefs are not the same as your beliefs.
I have no beliefs and I assumed that you had no beliefs since you said you were an "agnostic atheist."
There is the problem with your model.
No there is not, If you have beliefs on the question of God, you are either Nontheist or you are Theist.

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Re: Are atheists theists?

Post #34

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:48 pm [Replying to Kylie in post #32]
So you and I both fall into the same category.
According to the description you gave.
A person comes up to us. "Hi, William, hi, Kylie, how would you describe your position re God?"
I would describe my position as having no beliefs either way on the question of God.

Kylie: "I would also describe my position the same as William's."

Person: "According to Williams model, I can conclude that you both are Other then."
This is not true.

YOU are the one who claimed we were both "other" so don't try to act as though it is my model that claims we would have the same label.
And yet my beliefs are not the same as your beliefs.
I have no beliefs and I assumed that you had no beliefs since you said you were an "agnostic atheist."
I believe that it is very unlikely that God exists, though I do not claim to KNOW for a fact that there is no God.
There is the problem with your model.
No there is not, If you have beliefs on the question of God, you are either Nontheist or you are Theist.
Only if you force other people to fit your model.

You can't claim that other people are wrong when they don't follow your model. You aren't the authority on this subject.

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Re: Are atheists theists?

Post #35

Post by William »

[Replying to Kylie in post #34]
I believe that it is very unlikely that God exists, though I do not claim to KNOW for a fact that there is no God.
My Model
Then we are branching into sub-categories.

If you have beliefs on the question of God, you are either Nontheist or you are Theist.
Only if you force other people to fit your model.
No one can force anyone to fit anyone's model.
You can't claim that other people are wrong when they don't follow your model. You aren't the authority on this subject.
You are incorrect about my answers.

You asked me about my model, claiming that we did not hold the same position of Other.
YOU are the one who claimed we were both "other"
I wouldn't call it a 'claim'.

You asked me, telling me that you were an "agnostic atheist" and I translated that with my model, based on my understanding of agnostic. All agnostics are Other.

Image
My model places atheism {B] as the default position of all humans starting out from position [A], but no one can remain in that position. There are no subsets to the position of atheism in my model.

As personalities develop and more knowledge is gain re the question of GOD, individuals make one of three main decisions. [C]

[D E or F] Nontheism Other and Theism.

All three main positions have subsets.

The more data you give me re your position, the better able I am to place you.

So, from the model you follow, you say your position is "Agnostic atheist" and that translates to "Other" with my model.

With the added information re your beliefs - while you believe that it is very unlikely that God exists and I have no opinion either way re that, you have identified where we differ, and my model would still place you as Other - but within a subset.

But if you told me that your belief that it is very unlikely that GOD exists, adds other elements, and if those elements identified you as leaning enough toward being a nontheist in your expression re the question of GOD, and that nontheism was your preference, then my model would count you as a nontheist.

"Other" in my model consider those who are neither theist or nontheist to range from those who are totally disinterested through to those who are very interested so those ranges are subsets.

Just as there are subsets in the theism and nontheism positions.

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Re: Are atheists theists?

Post #36

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:30 am [Replying to Kylie in post #34]
I believe that it is very unlikely that God exists, though I do not claim to KNOW for a fact that there is no God.
My Model
Then we are branching into sub-categories.

If you have beliefs on the question of God, you are either Nontheist or you are Theist.
If you say this, you are trying to force me into your idea of what the model should be.
Only if you force other people to fit your model.
No one can force anyone to fit anyone's model.
Except you've been doing the whole time when you've claimed my model is wrong and you've been p[resenting your model as the way it should be done.
You can't claim that other people are wrong when they don't follow your model. You aren't the authority on this subject.
You are incorrect about my answers.

You asked me about my model, claiming that we did not hold the same position of Other.
You are the one who said we did both hold the "other" position, and I was tellign you why that is flawed, because we hold different views that your model can't differentiate.
YOU are the one who claimed we were both "other"
I wouldn't call it a 'claim'.

You asked me, telling me that you were an "agnostic atheist" and I translated that with my model, based on my understanding of agnostic. All agnostics are Other.

Image
My model places atheism {B] as the default position of all humans starting out from position [A], but no one can remain in that position. There are no subsets to the position of atheism in my model.

As personalities develop and more knowledge is gain re the question of GOD, individuals make one of three main decisions. [C]

[D E or F] Nontheism Other and Theism.

All three main positions have subsets.

The more data you give me re your position, the better able I am to place you.

So, from the model you follow, you say your position is "Agnostic atheist" and that translates to "Other" with my model.

With the added information re your beliefs - while you believe that it is very unlikely that God exists and I have no opinion either way re that, you have identified where we differ, and my model would still place you as Other - but within a subset.

But if you told me that your belief that it is very unlikely that GOD exists, adds other elements, and if those elements identified you as leaning enough toward being a nontheist in your expression re the question of GOD, and that nontheism was your preference, then my model would count you as a nontheist.

"Other" in my model consider those who are neither theist or nontheist to range from those who are totally disinterested through to those who are very interested so those ranges are subsets.

Just as there are subsets in the theism and nontheism positions.
"No one can force others to fit their model," you say, and then you immediately start trying to force me into your model.

Are you blind to your own hypocrisy?

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Re: Are atheists theists?

Post #37

Post by otseng »

Kylie wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:07 pm Are you blind to your own hypocrisy?
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Re: Are atheists theists?

Post #38

Post by William »

[Replying to Inquirer in post #1]
The only way to escape this is to argue that "absence of belief that God exists" is insufficient to define atheism (this contradiction vanishes when we use the traditional, established definition).

So are atheists also theists? if not, why not?
A: Atheists are potential theists.

Using the model I use;
Image


I was an atheist [lacked belief in GODs] from my birth until my being introduced to the idea that we exist within a creation and therefor there is a creator...

The idea prompted me to formulate a belief in the idea that I existed within a creation and subsequently prompted me to gain knowledge of theism - specifically the branch - Christianity -because Christianity was the religion which was predominant in the culture I was born into.

Eventually I discovered many of the other theist religions take on things, and found that they disagreed on the creators nature and storylines differed sufficiently for me to find a way to test the validity of Christianity, since it was Christianity which was the prevailing influence re the culture.

In testing, I discovered that there apparently was some kind of mind behind creation and that religions appeared to have pieces of the puzzle but none had the whole picture.

This meant I could continue on with the theist position but it also meant that I had to assume a neutral position on the subject of the nature of the creator until I could find a way to discover how to uncover said nature.

This process effectively meant that I changed tracks, from that of Theism to that of Other [according to my model].
____________________

So;
I began life's journey as an Atheist, [Atheism], learned that there was the question of GOD and chose Theism, learned from that what I could and changed track to Other [aka agnostic/neutral et al]

At no time in my journey have I ever seen the need to change tracks to Nontheism.

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