The problem of evil

[William]

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?

The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}

[oldbadger]

Peace to you,

I can agree that many laws were meant to keep them safe (as well as many actions that people find objectionable). But the law was also there as a tutor, to teach them, until Christ.

That being said, some laws were given - not because they were true from the beginning - but because their hearts were hard (such as the law permitting divorce, Matt 19:7-9, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hardness of heart, but it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you anyone who divorces his wife except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery."), and then there is the mishandling done by the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8... "How can you say 'we are wise for we have the law of [the LORD]', when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?").

So in Matthew 19:7-9 Jesus allowed divorce, Tam.
The Laws of Moses didn't need to provide 'divorce for adultery'....... adultery was a very very serious risk to the community (long term) and resulted in execution.

In some circumstances a couple could divorce, but in Mosaic law they could not remarry. Every law written was to provide for a strong healthy successful people (back then), only that and Christianity dumped hundreds of them. Jesus never dumped one, imo.
Closed couples was safe, open couples could lead to failure.
Since it was necessary to product a powerful community quickly, newlyweds were free from duties for a whole year to be together.
Gay closed couples couldn't increase the nation, by the way. Today we don't need any increases.

This was the real Jesus, I think.
Matthew {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[TRANSPONDER]

The two ideas go together; the command -revisions of the sermon on the mount replace OT laws with either stricter or more lenient directives, in line of course with Christian thought. In the case of divorce, the rules were made more strict, using the argument that the old Jews were more hard - hearted and so God was obliged to let them divorce their wives, but Christians are not allowed to do this, and that became the rule in Vatican based Christendom, leading to untold misery and England leaving Catholicism which is part reason why America is protestant today. God indeed works in mysterious ways, refusing to let Catherine give Henry an heir and spare so he'd have to go protestant in order to get one.

So either God knows what he is doing even if nobody else can work it out, or He isn't there at all.

[TRANSPONDER]

The two ideas go together; the command -revisions of the sermon on the mount replace OT laws with either stricter or more lenient directives, in line of course with Christian thought. In the case of divorce, the rules were made more strict, using the argument that the old Jews were more hard - hearted and so God was obliged to let them divorce their wives, but Christians are not allowed to do this, and that became the rule in Vatican based Christendom, leading to untold misery and England leaving Catholicism which is part reason why America is protestant today. God indeed works in mysterious ways, refusing to let Catherine give Henry an heir and spare so he'd have to go protestant in order to get one.

So either God knows what he is doing even if nobody else can work it out, or He isn't there at all.

[oldbadger]

The two ideas go together; the command -revisions of the sermon on the mount replace OT laws with either stricter or more lenient directives, in line of course with Christian thought. In the case of divorce, the rules were made more strict, using the argument that the old Jews were more hard - hearted and so God was obliged to let them divorce their wives, but Christians are not allowed to do this, and that became the rule in Vatican based Christendom, leading to untold misery and England leaving Catholicism which is part reason why America is protestant today. God indeed works in mysterious ways, refusing to let Catherine give Henry an heir and spare so he'd have to go protestant in order to get one.

So either God knows what he is doing even if nobody else can work it out, or He isn't there at all.

Yeah. True. True that there is no God there, not even a really nasty destructive terror-God.
Just the random chaos of Nature.
And occasionally some truly terrifying people who somehow have grasped power and dream that they are leaders of a religion and can do whatever they like. Even Henry's friends found themselves on the scaffold, with baying crowd. But Cromwell deserved that!!

[William]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #204]

So either God knows what he is doing even if nobody else can work it out, or He isn't there at all.

Can you fit this observation in with the Problem of Evil argument?

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

I can agree that many laws were meant to keep them safe (as well as many actions that people find objectionable). But the law was also there as a tutor, to teach them, until Christ.

That being said, some laws were given - not because they were true from the beginning - but because their hearts were hard (such as the law permitting divorce, Matt 19:7-9, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hardness of heart, but it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you anyone who divorces his wife except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery."), and then there is the mishandling done by the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8... "How can you say 'we are wise for we have the law of [the LORD]', when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?").

So in Matthew 19:7-9 Jesus allowed divorce, Tam.

Yes, but if you divorced for any reason other than adultery, and then remarried, you would be committing adultery yourself. That was always true, but hearts were too hard to accept this.

The Laws of Moses didn't need to provide 'divorce for adultery'....... adultery was a very very serious risk to the community (long term) and resulted in execution.

Everything is more serious in a smaller community, but adultery carries the same pain and risks today as any other time. It is as much a sin today as it ever was then.

In some circumstances a couple could divorce, but in Mosaic law they could not remarry.

I'm not sure where that is coming from. A man could send his wife away with a certificate of divorce. If she could find another husband, she could remarry (what else would the certificate have been for?); and there is no reason to think that he could not also remarry (according to the Mosaic law).

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. Deut. 24:1-4



Interesting side point when it comes to adultery and execution or divorce - when Israel was unfaithful to God, He sent her away with a certificate of divorce. He did not execute her (though sending her away, divorced, would have been like a death blow).

I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. Jeremiah 3:8

Every law written was to provide for a strong healthy successful people (back then), only that and Christianity dumped hundreds of them.

You cannot dump something that never applied to you. The law covenant was a contract between Israel and God. You cannot hold someone else to the terms of a contract that they were not a party TO.

Jesus never dumped one, imo.

As you quoted in your post, Christ came to fulfill the law. That is what He did - even surpassing the written law with LOVE (the true law from God, from the beginning).

Notice though that the verse states not one jot or tittle will drop until all is fulfilled. Meaning, at some point, jots and tittles will be dropped.

Christ fulfilled the law. If we are in Christ, then we are under the law of the new covenant, and that law is love. Love is the law that is written upon the heart in the new covenant.

Love God with your whole heart, mind, body. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love your enemies. And as Christ said to His apostles, Love one another as I have loved you.

Also, there is no law against love (Galatians 5:22, 23), and love covers over a multitude of sins (1Peter 4:8; Proverbs 10:12).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[oldbadger]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #204]

So either God knows what he is doing even if nobody else can work it out, or He isn't there at all.

Can you fit this observation in with the Problem of Evil argument?

No William, not very well. My reply to Transponder's sentence (shown above) was:-

''Yeah. True. True that there is no God there, not even a really nasty destructive terror-God.
Just the random chaos of Nature.''

OK? I did not consider the 'either/or' of that sentence, I just focused directly upon 'No God there... just Nature'
And I don't recognise a devil.

[William]

William: Can you fit this observation in with the Problem of Evil argument?

[Replying to oldbadger in post #207]

No William, not very well.

Okay. I wasn't sure what the relevance was with the OP subject and your comments.

[oldbadger]

Peace to you,

I can agree that many laws were meant to keep them safe (as well as many actions that people find objectionable). But the law was also there as a tutor, to teach them, until Christ.

That's what Christians believe but I don't....... and I don't understand why Christianity ignored so many whilst focusing upon so few.

That being said, some laws were given - not because they were true from the beginning - but because their hearts were hard (such as the law permitting divorce, Matt 19:7-9, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hardness of heart, but it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you anyone who divorces his wife except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery."), and then there is the mishandling done by the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8... "How can you say 'we are wise for we have the law of [the LORD]', when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?").

The sexuality and marriage laws were all about the increase of the people but with protection against the transmission of sicknesses.

Yes, but if you divorced for any reason other than adultery, and then remarried, you would be committing adultery yourself. That was always true, but hearts were too hard to accept this.

Further down you mention that divorced people could remarry, even if they had just received a separation document...

Everything is more serious in a smaller community, but adultery carries the same pain and risks today as any other time. It is as much a sin today as it ever was then.

Adultery can lead to transmitted sickness, but modern medicine can reduce or cure more of these today.
Sin leads to sickness..... not to hell, imo.

I'm not sure where that is coming from. A man could send his wife away with a certificate of divorce. If she could find another husband, she could remarry (what else would the certificate have been for?); and there is no reason to think that he could not also remarry (according to the Mosaic law).

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, 2 and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, 3 and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, 4 then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. Deut. 24:1-4

I highlighted what you pasted, showing that what I wrote is correct, Tam. I'll write it again here:-
In some circumstances a couple could divorce, but in Mosaic law they could not remarry.

Interesting side point when it comes to adultery and execution or divorce - when Israel was unfaithful to God, He sent her away with a certificate of divorce. He did not execute her (though sending her away, divorced, would have been like a death blow).

I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. Jeremiah 3:8

She was married to God? I don't expect that God carried sickness, nor could be infected with it..... maybe that's the reason.

You cannot dump something that never applied to you. The law covenant was a contract between Israel and God. You cannot hold someone else to the terms of a contract that they were not a party TO.

As you quoted in your post, Christ came to fulfill the law. That is what He did - even surpassing the written law with LOVE (the true law from God, from the beginning).

Notice though that the verse states not one jot or tittle will drop until all is fulfilled. Meaning, at some point, jots and tittles will be dropped.

Christ fulfilled the law. If we are in Christ, then we are under the law of the new covenant, and that law is love. Love is the law that is written upon the heart in the new covenant.

Love God with your whole heart, mind, body. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love your enemies. And as Christ said to His apostles, Love one another as I have loved you.

Also, there is no law against love (Galatians 5:22, 23), and love covers over a multitude of sins (1Peter 4:8; Proverbs 10:12).

Jesus thought and said quite clearly that the law applied 'in full' at that time.
He said it and it was written. I think he meant it.
For example, shellfish carried the deadly paralysis sickness back then, it did in Jesus time, and it still does today! The only reason why I gather and eat oysters occasionally is because science has figured out how to kill the shelfish sicknesses before I eat them!

[William]

Overcoming the illusion of evil...what we notice and how that effects our understanding of experience in this universe.