Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[kjw47]

Funny--Its not going to get you through what is coming to this earth. It will not get any better, just worse from here on out.

That scare-mongering has been used for centuries. Nevertheless, whether things get better or worse one thing is for sure, it will have everything to do with human nature and nothing to do with any God.

By the way, getting truth from the mouths of preachers has nothing to do with the monetary compensation they receive for their words.

My teachers receive 0 pay. They teach from love.

[kjw47]

You have watched revelation 13 for years.
A prophecy from daniel pointed to revelation 6 being 1914--It said 2520 years from the removal of the last king in Jerusalem--607 bce that occurred so 607 -2520= 1914--And at rev 6 it says he will receive his crown= Jesus is the only one getting the crown, but Michael was named as the rider of that white horse, it was the war in heaven, satan and his angels lost and were cast to the earth.

Please present something other'n the book making the claims by which we may confirm this tale.

Notice in Rev 6 and peace was taken from the earth = not a single war but a world war ww1 proving the accuracy of that prophecy in Daniel occurring in 1914. Satan came angry knowing his time was short. He filled mens hearts with hatred thus ww1, Millions slaughtered, after ww1 millions upon millions died of the things mentioned of the other 3 riders of Rev 6. We are over 100 years past that in the book of revelation. Its nearing the end.

Where have you established this Satan feller existed, and where have you established, beyond the book making the claims, that he did as you say?

The liar lies, and the preacher preaches.

And 99% live in darkness. God reveals himself to those who love him and obey him. Not in sight but in other ways.

How does this bit of preaching offer us some means to confirm your challenged claims above are true and factual?

Must be sad to go through this life with no hope.

[JoeyKnothead]

Must be sad to go through this life with no hope.

I don't reckon it's any sadder'n entering into debate just so one can get their preaching on.

Alas, I have hope you'll try to put truth to your claims. Will you make us all sad by refusing to do you any of it ?

I mean, if your message is important enough to take the time to tell it, wouldn't you wanna ensure folks know you're doing some tellings of truth?

[TRANSPONDER]

Funny--Its not going to get you through what is coming to this earth. It will not get any better, just worse from here on out.

That scare-mongering has been used for centuries. Nevertheless, whether things get better or worse one thing is for sure, it will have everything to do with human nature and nothing to do with any God.

By the way, getting truth from the mouths of preachers has nothing to do with the monetary compensation they receive for their words.

My teachers receive 0 pay. They teach from love.

We don't get paid either, from imparting reason, logic and evidence to those who have their fingers in their ears and threaten us with what's coming to us, accuse us of having no hope because we do not believe in threats of Hellfire, and think that claims of feeling so pleased with their fallacious beliefs is valid evidence, but we do it out of love, I suppose.

[POI]

God reveals himself to those who love him and obey him. Not in sight but in other ways.

Well then, you have just contradicted the Bible. 'Sal of Tarsus' did not love and obey him. And yet, 'god/Jesus' revealed himself to him. Thus, you are wrong.

And what do you mean by, "Not in sight but in other ways"??? How do you know it is god, and you are not mistaken?

BTW: Still awaiting a real response to post 183?

Actually Saul was very zealous for what he believed was Gods will against the christians. Jesus turned that zealousness to work for him instead of against him. And God will interfere with free will if it benefits his true followers, not always bit sometimes he did. Like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendego thrown into a firey furnace, God interfered with that free will and saved them.

Interesting...

So is your argument A), B), or both?

A) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him?

B) God only reveals himself to the ones who he knows will then follow?

BTW: I'm still awaiting a proper response to post 183? Is that going to happen? We can start with your claim about 'creation'.

God is looking for those with the right heart condition. That is why Jesus started the door to door work-Luke 10,,Acts 20:20-- Basically when one shows God their desire to learn and obey all he requires, those he answers their prayers( if its his will they are asking for, not just selfish prayers) Or much interfering with free will.
I would say your A is correct, And B is correct.

If A) is correct, then B) is absolutely logically unnecessary. Why? Inexorably, by definition, means "in a way that is impossible to stop or prevent.". God can perform A) with anyone who does not already 'have the right heart condition.'. And according to you, he does sometimes.

Do you see the pickle you have now placed yourself into? Seems as though the god, for which you believe exists, which you have not YET proven to exist BTW, decides to cause some to be drawn to him, and not others. In post 196, you stated --- "God will interfere with free will". If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all.

If He does not, then he is not truly loving for all of his "creation".

[POI]

There is so much to unpack here. Thank you for your response.

Creation proves he exists.

When you say 'creation', can you please clarify? Case/point, the Grand Canyon was 'created' by water. Meaning, 'creation' needs clarification. Case/point, if everything was 'created', are you able to distinguish WHO or WHAT 'created' the observed 'phenomenon' in ALL cases? If not, then your entire given above argument appeals to fallacious argumentation. Meaning, that looks 'created', therefore "God". And not just any 'god', but the God I believe in....

So far, in staying true to the question in the OP, you have made absolutely no demonstration of the Christian God.

In the OT those bible writers taught things about earth and outer space no one could know back then.

Well, I've read the Bible, and it appears the authors had limited knowledge to how the 'universe' actually works. I guess the first question would be... "Hey Bible writer, what was your intent, when you wrote this or that passage?" We cannot ask them. They are long dead. The mere fact you have YEC's, OEC's, while reading from the same book, is clue #1 that the book can be 'interpreted' in a multitude of ways -- even from the most earnest and well-meaning of readers.

Further, the book is not specific enough. You can get out of it, many differing things. Many of these assertions are vague.

You could also read Nostradamus and 'conclude' he was right about many things. Hence, making him have 'foreknowledge.' So what?

So far, in staying true to the question in the OP, you have made absolutely no demonstration of the Christian God.

Some of the things werent proven to be truth, by man until the 1800,s. The Prophet Isaiah foretold that a man named Cyrus would bring Babylon down 200 years prior to that occurrence.

It's easy to accept the 'hits', and ignore the misses. The Bible also states the city of Tyre will be no more. But it's still around. But even still, we have countless people who claim to read the future. Would this make them truly divine, if true? Probably not. It would just mean it becomes another countless claim of reading the future, or talking to the dead, etc.... So this argument will likely go nowhere, fast...

So far, in staying true to the question in the OP, you have made absolutely no demonstration of the Christian God.

And the biggest one of all--all have watched revelation passing before their eyes for well over 100 years. Its getting close to the end.

Speak to a JW, and they will have hit the "reset button" a few times on this already. Meaning, they have moved the goalposts. It's very easy for any Christian, in any era between the first century, and now, to think they are living in the 'end times'. Until it would actually happen, Christians have carte blanche to unfalsifiably make such claims until the cows come home. I.E. "It's gonna happen, you just wait and see."

Further, the book of "Revelation" may be the vaguest book of them all?

So far, in staying true to the question in the OP, you have made absolutely no demonstration of the Christian God.

It was Gods wisdom, power and precise usage of science and math that created all things.
When one understands how God works things its like this--Matt 24:45--His son appoints his real teachers on earth, then at the proper time( When God wills) truth is revealed through them, not before. Yet the whole bible which already contains the truths is taught on before the proper time, then errors are made. So its important to make correction once God reveals something through those teachers.

Rogue assertions, with no evidence to back it up, can be made my anyone. Further, you have again not really addressed post 183. Allow me to highlight what you have skipped (post 183):

When you say 'creation', can you please clarify? Case/point, the Grand Canyon was 'created' by water. Meaning, 'creation' needs clarification. Case/point, if everything was 'created', are you able to distinguish WHO or WHAT 'created' the observed 'phenomenon' in ALL cases? If not, then your entire given above argument appeals to fallacious argumentation. Meaning, that looks 'created', therefore "God". And not just any 'god', but the God I believe in....

Maybe if I jump-start this request, you can follow along....

- When I look at a very large pile of dirt next to one's property, I can go about surmising this pile was likely 'created' by the person who lives there.

- When you see Mount Everest, you may surmise this very large pile of substance was 'created' by god?

*******************************

Again, from post 183:

Well, I've read the Bible, and it appears the authors had limited knowledge to how the 'universe' actually works. I guess the first question would be... "Hey Bible writer, what was your intent, when you wrote this or that passage?" We cannot ask them. They are long dead. The mere fact you have YEC's, OEC's, while reading from the same book, is clue #1 that the book can be 'interpreted' in a multitude of ways -- even from the most earnest and well-meaning of readers.

Further, the book is not specific enough. You can get out of it, many differing things. Many of these assertions are vague.

You could also read Nostradamus and 'conclude' he was right about many things. Hence, making him have 'foreknowledge.' So what?

So far, in staying true to the question in the OP, you have made absolutely no demonstration of the Christian God.

The take away here... Even though you are an earnest believer, you may have this translation ALL WRONG. How do you know your translation is right?

And since you can read Genesis, and interpret it's assertions in differing ways, maybe this is how many believers retain belief? Meaning, "Oh, that doesn't mean what it appears to say there." BUT AGAIN, we cannot ask the authors what they meant, because they are dead. And we certainly cannot ask god?.?.?.?.?

[kjw47]

Funny--Its not going to get you through what is coming to this earth. It will not get any better, just worse from here on out.

That scare-mongering has been used for centuries. Nevertheless, whether things get better or worse one thing is for sure, it will have everything to do with human nature and nothing to do with any God.

By the way, getting truth from the mouths of preachers has nothing to do with the monetary compensation they receive for their words.

My teachers receive 0 pay. They teach from love.

We don't get paid either, from imparting reason, logic and evidence to those who have their fingers in their ears and threaten us with what's coming to us, accuse us of having no hope because we do not believe in threats of Hellfire, and think that claims of feeling so pleased with their fallacious beliefs is valid evidence, but we do it out of love, I suppose.

Only those in darkness teach a literal eternal suffering. The blind believe them.

[kjw47]

God reveals himself to those who love him and obey him. Not in sight but in other ways.

Well then, you have just contradicted the Bible. 'Sal of Tarsus' did not love and obey him. And yet, 'god/Jesus' revealed himself to him. Thus, you are wrong.

And what do you mean by, "Not in sight but in other ways"??? How do you know it is god, and you are not mistaken?

BTW: Still awaiting a real response to post 183?

Actually Saul was very zealous for what he believed was Gods will against the christians. Jesus turned that zealousness to work for him instead of against him. And God will interfere with free will if it benefits his true followers, not always bit sometimes he did. Like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendego thrown into a firey furnace, God interfered with that free will and saved them.

Interesting...

So is your argument A), B), or both?

A) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him?

B) God only reveals himself to the ones who he knows will then follow?

BTW: I'm still awaiting a proper response to post 183? Is that going to happen? We can start with your claim about 'creation'.

God is looking for those with the right heart condition. That is why Jesus started the door to door work-Luke 10,,Acts 20:20-- Basically when one shows God their desire to learn and obey all he requires, those he answers their prayers( if its his will they are asking for, not just selfish prayers) Or much interfering with free will.
I would say your A is correct, And B is correct.

If A) is correct, then B) is absolutely logically unnecessary. Why? Inexorably, by definition, means "in a way that is impossible to stop or prevent.". God can perform A) with anyone who does not already 'have the right heart condition.'. And according to you, he does sometimes.

Do you see the pickle you have now placed yourself into? Seems as though the god, for which you believe exists, which you have not YET proven to exist BTW, decides to cause some to be drawn to him, and not others. In post 196, you stated --- "God will interfere with free will". If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all.

If He does not, then he is not truly loving for all of his "creation".

I havent placed myself in a pickle, you lacking understanding puts me there. Saul did what he did out of a heart for serving God. He was in error thats all. But had the right heart condition as all could see once put on the correct path.

[kjw47]

There is so much to unpack here. Thank you for your response.

Creation proves he exists.

When you say 'creation', can you please clarify? Case/point, the Grand Canyon was 'created' by water. Meaning, 'creation' needs clarification. Case/point, if everything was 'created', are you able to distinguish WHO or WHAT 'created' the observed 'phenomenon' in ALL cases? If not, then your entire given above argument appeals to fallacious argumentation. Meaning, that looks 'created', therefore "God". And not just any 'god', but the God I believe in....

So far, in staying true to the question in the OP, you have made absolutely no demonstration of the Christian God.

In the OT those bible writers taught things about earth and outer space no one could know back then.

Well, I've read the Bible, and it appears the authors had limited knowledge to how the 'universe' actually works. I guess the first question would be... "Hey Bible writer, what was your intent, when you wrote this or that passage?" We cannot ask them. They are long dead. The mere fact you have YEC's, OEC's, while reading from the same book, is clue #1 that the book can be 'interpreted' in a multitude of ways -- even from the most earnest and well-meaning of readers.

Further, the book is not specific enough. You can get out of it, many differing things. Many of these assertions are vague.

You could also read Nostradamus and 'conclude' he was right about many things. Hence, making him have 'foreknowledge.' So what?

So far, in staying true to the question in the OP, you have made absolutely no demonstration of the Christian God.

Some of the things werent proven to be truth, by man until the 1800,s. The Prophet Isaiah foretold that a man named Cyrus would bring Babylon down 200 years prior to that occurrence.

It's easy to accept the 'hits', and ignore the misses. The Bible also states the city of Tyre will be no more. But it's still around. But even still, we have countless people who claim to read the future. Would this make them truly divine, if true? Probably not. It would just mean it becomes another countless claim of reading the future, or talking to the dead, etc.... So this argument will likely go nowhere, fast...

So far, in staying true to the question in the OP, you have made absolutely no demonstration of the Christian God.

And the biggest one of all--all have watched revelation passing before their eyes for well over 100 years. Its getting close to the end.

Speak to a JW, and they will have hit the "reset button" a few times on this already. Meaning, they have moved the goalposts. It's very easy for any Christian, in any era between the first century, and now, to think they are living in the 'end times'. Until it would actually happen, Christians have carte blanche to unfalsifiably make such claims until the cows come home. I.E. "It's gonna happen, you just wait and see."

Further, the book of "Revelation" may be the vaguest book of them all?

So far, in staying true to the question in the OP, you have made absolutely no demonstration of the Christian God.

It was Gods wisdom, power and precise usage of science and math that created all things.
When one understands how God works things its like this--Matt 24:45--His son appoints his real teachers on earth, then at the proper time( When God wills) truth is revealed through them, not before. Yet the whole bible which already contains the truths is taught on before the proper time, then errors are made. So its important to make correction once God reveals something through those teachers.

Rogue assertions, with no evidence to back it up, can be made my anyone. Further, you have again not really addressed post 183. Allow me to highlight what you have skipped (post 183):

When you say 'creation', can you please clarify? Case/point, the Grand Canyon was 'created' by water. Meaning, 'creation' needs clarification. Case/point, if everything was 'created', are you able to distinguish WHO or WHAT 'created' the observed 'phenomenon' in ALL cases? If not, then your entire given above argument appeals to fallacious argumentation. Meaning, that looks 'created', therefore "God". And not just any 'god', but the God I believe in....

Maybe if I jump-start this request, you can follow along....

- When I look at a very large pile of dirt next to one's property, I can go about surmising this pile was likely 'created' by the person who lives there.

- When you see Mount Everest, you may surmise this very large pile of substance was 'created' by god?

*******************************

Again, from post 183:

Well, I've read the Bible, and it appears the authors had limited knowledge to how the 'universe' actually works. I guess the first question would be... "Hey Bible writer, what was your intent, when you wrote this or that passage?" We cannot ask them. They are long dead. The mere fact you have YEC's, OEC's, while reading from the same book, is clue #1 that the book can be 'interpreted' in a multitude of ways -- even from the most earnest and well-meaning of readers.

Further, the book is not specific enough. You can get out of it, many differing things. Many of these assertions are vague.

You could also read Nostradamus and 'conclude' he was right about many things. Hence, making him have 'foreknowledge.' So what?

So far, in staying true to the question in the OP, you have made absolutely no demonstration of the Christian God.

The take away here... Even though you are an earnest believer, you may have this translation ALL WRONG. How do you know your translation is right?

And since you can read Genesis, and interpret it's assertions in differing ways, maybe this is how many believers retain belief? Meaning, "Oh, that doesn't mean what it appears to say there." BUT AGAIN, we cannot ask the authors what they meant, because they are dead. And we certainly cannot ask god?.?.?.?.?

No mortal can even create a single blade of grass. Just because one makes a pile of dirt, they did not create that dirt. Usually they just twist what Nostradamus said to try and fit things. The real teachers of Jesus have truth. A prophecy in Daniel 12:4 assures truth becomes abundant here in these last days.

[TRANSPONDER]

Funny--Its not going to get you through what is coming to this earth. It will not get any better, just worse from here on out.

That scare-mongering has been used for centuries. Nevertheless, whether things get better or worse one thing is for sure, it will have everything to do with human nature and nothing to do with any God.

By the way, getting truth from the mouths of preachers has nothing to do with the monetary compensation they receive for their words.

My teachers receive 0 pay. They teach from love.

We don't get paid either, from imparting reason, logic and evidence to those who have their fingers in their ears and threaten us with what's coming to us, accuse us of having no hope because we do not believe in threats of Hellfire, and think that claims of feeling so pleased with their fallacious beliefs is valid evidence, but we do it out of love, I suppose.

Only those in darkness teach a literal eternal suffering. The blind believe them.

Ok. not a few reject ET.