Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

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Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #1

Post by POI »

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #231

Post by TRANSPONDER »

POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:00 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:52 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:42 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:33 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:25 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:32 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:10 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 6:51 pm
POI wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:00 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:54 pm




Actually Saul was very zealous for what he believed was Gods will against the christians. Jesus turned that zealousness to work for him instead of against him. And God will interfere with free will if it benefits his true followers, not always bit sometimes he did. Like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendego thrown into a firey furnace, God interfered with that free will and saved them.



Interesting...

So is your argument A), B), or both?

A) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him?

B) God only reveals himself to the ones who he knows will then follow?

BTW: I'm still awaiting a proper response to post 183? Is that going to happen? We can start with your claim about 'creation'.
God is looking for those with the right heart condition. That is why Jesus started the door to door work-Luke 10,,Acts 20:20-- Basically when one shows God their desire to learn and obey all he requires, those he answers their prayers( if its his will they are asking for, not just selfish prayers) Or much interfering with free will.
I would say your A is correct, And B is correct.
If A) is correct, then B) is absolutely logically unnecessary. Why? Inexorably, by definition, means "in a way that is impossible to stop or prevent.". God can perform A) with anyone who does not already 'have the right heart condition.'. And according to you, he does sometimes.

Do you see the pickle you have now placed yourself into? Seems as though the god, for which you believe exists, which you have not YET proven to exist BTW, decides to cause some to be drawn to him, and not others. In post 196, you stated --- "God will interfere with free will". If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all.

If He does not, then he is not truly loving for all of his "creation".

I havent placed myself in a pickle, you lacking understanding puts me there. Saul did what he did out of a heart for serving God. He was in error thats all. But had the right heart condition as all could see once put on the correct path.
No, you have placed yourself into a pickle. You selected both A) and B). You are now in quite the bind. One in which you cannot wiggle yourself out from... You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

By selecting A), God can simply draw anyone to him, by simply manipulating their free will <--- as you already explained prior...

God doesn't manipulate ones free will to serve him, if i said he did i was in error. Is that how you originally stated A.?
Well, either way, you must now back-peddle a bit. You are in a bind, regardless. Why? I asked if God causes some to become inexorably drawn to him. You stated yes.

Its you who must back pedal, it was you who altered the words in your original A. You did not say manipulate in your first post. So it is true God does draw some to him, he doesnt manipulate them into doing so.
Now you are just trying to win an argument with 'word play'. :) If I cause you to become inexorably drawn to me, I have manipulated/changed/other your free will. ;) So why doesn't God just manipulate/change/infringe upon everyone's free will; who is not already drawn to him?
:D The "I did not use those exact words" Gambit. It's remarkable how that one pops up.
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:29 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:26 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:18 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:00 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:52 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:42 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:33 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:25 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:32 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:10 pm

If A) is correct, then B) is absolutely logically unnecessary. Why? Inexorably, by definition, means "in a way that is impossible to stop or prevent.". God can perform A) with anyone who does not already 'have the right heart condition.'. And according to you, he does sometimes.

Do you see the pickle you have now placed yourself into? Seems as though the god, for which you believe exists, which you have not YET proven to exist BTW, decides to cause some to be drawn to him, and not others. In post 196, you stated --- "God will interfere with free will". If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all.

If He does not, then he is not truly loving for all of his "creation".

I havent placed myself in a pickle, you lacking understanding puts me there. Saul did what he did out of a heart for serving God. He was in error thats all. But had the right heart condition as all could see once put on the correct path.
No, you have placed yourself into a pickle. You selected both A) and B). You are now in quite the bind. One in which you cannot wiggle yourself out from... You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

By selecting A), God can simply draw anyone to him, by simply manipulating their free will <--- as you already explained prior...

God doesn't manipulate ones free will to serve him, if i said he did i was in error. Is that how you originally stated A.?
Well, either way, you must now back-peddle a bit. You are in a bind, regardless. Why? I asked if God causes some to become inexorably drawn to him. You stated yes.

Its you who must back pedal, it was you who altered the words in your original A. You did not say manipulate in your first post. So it is true God does draw some to him, he doesnt manipulate them into doing so.
Now you are just trying to win an argument with 'word play'. :) If I cause you to become inexorably drawn to me, I have manipulated/changed/other your free will. ;) So why doesn't God just manipulate/change/infringe upon everyone's free will; who is not already drawn to him?

This is how Jesus shows it will be done to draw the good hearts to God-Luke 10--Acts 20:20
Bible quotes will not protect you from the lack in logic you demonstrate here. You stated yourself (again):

Post 196 ---> "God will interfere with free will".

If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all. Interfere, manipulate, change, infringe upon, other, it's all the same.

He rarely interferes with free will. Only if it benefits his true followers.
It was bad even without 'True Followers'. God doesn't care about anyone but 'True Followers'? Does't he want to save everyone? If (as POI has been arguing) God Can override Free will (e.g Saul) when it suits him, why doesn't it suit him to override everyone's Free will, convert us all and save everyone? He hardens peoples' hearts to damn them, why not change their minds to save them?

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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #232

Post by POI »

kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:29 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:26 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:18 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:00 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:52 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:42 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:33 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:25 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:32 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:10 pm

If A) is correct, then B) is absolutely logically unnecessary. Why? Inexorably, by definition, means "in a way that is impossible to stop or prevent.". God can perform A) with anyone who does not already 'have the right heart condition.'. And according to you, he does sometimes.

Do you see the pickle you have now placed yourself into? Seems as though the god, for which you believe exists, which you have not YET proven to exist BTW, decides to cause some to be drawn to him, and not others. In post 196, you stated --- "God will interfere with free will". If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all.

If He does not, then he is not truly loving for all of his "creation".

I havent placed myself in a pickle, you lacking understanding puts me there. Saul did what he did out of a heart for serving God. He was in error thats all. But had the right heart condition as all could see once put on the correct path.
No, you have placed yourself into a pickle. You selected both A) and B). You are now in quite the bind. One in which you cannot wiggle yourself out from... You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

By selecting A), God can simply draw anyone to him, by simply manipulating their free will <--- as you already explained prior...

God doesn't manipulate ones free will to serve him, if i said he did i was in error. Is that how you originally stated A.?
Well, either way, you must now back-peddle a bit. You are in a bind, regardless. Why? I asked if God causes some to become inexorably drawn to him. You stated yes.

Its you who must back pedal, it was you who altered the words in your original A. You did not say manipulate in your first post. So it is true God does draw some to him, he doesnt manipulate them into doing so.
Now you are just trying to win an argument with 'word play'. :) If I cause you to become inexorably drawn to me, I have manipulated/changed/other your free will. ;) So why doesn't God just manipulate/change/infringe upon everyone's free will; who is not already drawn to him?

This is how Jesus shows it will be done to draw the good hearts to God-Luke 10--Acts 20:20
Bible quotes will not protect you from the lack in logic you demonstrate here. You stated yourself (again):

Post 196 ---> "God will interfere with free will".

If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all. Interfere, manipulate, change, infringe upon, other, it's all the same.

He rarely interferes with free will. Only if it benefits his true followers.
You are still not getting it. If he ever interferes with free will, which then causes one to become inexorably drawn to him, then just do it for all.

Further, in regards to 'creation', your case is not convincing in the least. Creating a false dichotomy for yourself is not convincing. I.E. "Humans cannot create things, therefore MY GOD."
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #233

Post by TRANSPONDER »

POI wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:20 am
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:29 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:26 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:18 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:00 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:52 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:42 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:33 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:25 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:32 pm


I havent placed myself in a pickle, you lacking understanding puts me there. Saul did what he did out of a heart for serving God. He was in error thats all. But had the right heart condition as all could see once put on the correct path.
No, you have placed yourself into a pickle. You selected both A) and B). You are now in quite the bind. One in which you cannot wiggle yourself out from... You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

By selecting A), God can simply draw anyone to him, by simply manipulating their free will <--- as you already explained prior...

God doesn't manipulate ones free will to serve him, if i said he did i was in error. Is that how you originally stated A.?
Well, either way, you must now back-peddle a bit. You are in a bind, regardless. Why? I asked if God causes some to become inexorably drawn to him. You stated yes.

Its you who must back pedal, it was you who altered the words in your original A. You did not say manipulate in your first post. So it is true God does draw some to him, he doesnt manipulate them into doing so.
Now you are just trying to win an argument with 'word play'. :) If I cause you to become inexorably drawn to me, I have manipulated/changed/other your free will. ;) So why doesn't God just manipulate/change/infringe upon everyone's free will; who is not already drawn to him?

This is how Jesus shows it will be done to draw the good hearts to God-Luke 10--Acts 20:20
Bible quotes will not protect you from the lack in logic you demonstrate here. You stated yourself (again):

Post 196 ---> "God will interfere with free will".

If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all. Interfere, manipulate, change, infringe upon, other, it's all the same.

He rarely interferes with free will. Only if it benefits his true followers.
You are still not getting it. If he ever interferes with free will, which then causes one to become inexorably drawn to him, then just do it for all.

Further, in regards to 'creation', your case is not convincing in the least. Creating a false dichotomy for yourself is not convincing. I.E. "Humans cannot create things, therefore MY GOD."
Yeah.... There are so many threads I don't know where to start Let me list them so I don't forget :D

1. Neil DeGrasse Tyson
2 the parable of the hairdresser.
3 water -muddying
4 the making of the mountain.
5. I'll probably think of something.

2 first. The objection to 'why doesn't God convert everyone' was answered long ago in this pable-analogy
"Someone asked a hairdresser why so many people in the town had terrible haircuts. "They first have to come to me" replied the hairdresser. In the same way, God can only 'Save' people when they come to him to be saved. End of parable.

That was refuted old time by 'If the hairdresser had the power to have everyone's hair nice my a miracle, he could and should do it'. The excuse that it would interfere with their free will could be countered by 'Well the town history records that he dressed the Governors' hair by magic unasked as he didn't think it looked good' and later on, he magically dressed the ambassadors' hair before he went off to Yurrop as he should make a good impression, so he can override Free Will when he wants'.

That's the thing with analogies, even when presented as parables, as they have to be exact, or they fail. I just made it an exact analogy. And it actually underlines why there is no good excuse for why God doesn't save everyone - if he indeed wants to.

I just watched Tyson talking about people holding various beliefs and (after veering off some beliefs being validated and others not) he got onto the dangers of some being able to enforce their beliefs on others. That brings up of course science denial because Dr or professor Tyson realises that science is the best (and indeed the only) method of finding what's true and what is only belief. Which brings up that point above "Humans cannot create things, therefore MY GOD."

Effectively, that's the creationist case - Humans cannot make biological forms, therefore a god must have done it. This isn't valid as humans cannot make a mountain either by piling up rock or (the way it happens) upthrusting the mantle by subduct magma. But because it's beyond our capabilities, doesn't mean that we don't know it isn't a god that needs to do it. A God is not necessary for mountains or for life. Cue abiogenesis. Only theoretical, but is is not "Impossible" a the Believers like to claim. And a valid alternative hypothetical explanation means that God is not the only answer (that's why they get trapped into insisting that abiogenesis in 'impossible'; they cannot show that goddunnit is the better mechanism as there is none - they have to swear that abiogenesis is ;impossible' leaving God as the only theory on the table.

And it's a bit of a side point, but they do love to confuse. The mess of stuff about the definition of atheism, for instance. Fiddling around with definitions, epistemology and dismissing the validity of logic as well as (of course) science. (refuted long ago by 'if you dismiss science and logic as mere human opinion, you can never again appeal to science and logic to support your arguments'. I was rather proud of that one) and this with all the Woo -stuff like indeterminacy and alien computer - games is just water - muddying to confuse. quite apart from Chophra-esque Bamboozlement (it was exposed when an actual expert in quantum physics showed up and debunked him) and the stuff that is simply invalid like reversal of burden of proof, and of course nonsense like Anselm's ontological argument is what I came to realise is what is often meant by 'Philosophy'.It is often mere sophistry - fiddling about with words and concepts, just to confuse people and so as to try to sell them claims that otherwise wouldn't pass muster; "make them doubt everything they thought they knew". This of course fails for the old and basic reason - even if we found that every single 'Fact' we thought we knew was wrong, that would still not validate any god -claim, let alone a particular one.

It is (of course) only valid in the Theist mind because of this a priori belief that the god they believe in (created in their own image) is the default -theory that needs to be 100% displaces by scientific materialism.

The Theist mental processes are Fascinating; appalling but fascinating. I haven't even got onto use of biblequotes as evidence, let alone rewriting the Bible make it work, ignoring awkward questions and changing the subject (1),or the irrelevant stuff like appeal to the good that religion hath done (Athest Axiom no. 6 "You cannot buy the truth with free soup") or the blatant propagandas. One opponent on the former board was prime at this and he bewildered me by coming up with all sorts of nonsense like atheist playing the victim, tribalism and hat - wearing. I realised later that these were polemical memes that he was just lifting and aiming at atheists. But I'm long enough already.

(1)*koff*intelligent creator, or not *koff* I won't let him ignore it.

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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #234

Post by kjw47 »

POI wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:20 am
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:29 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:26 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:18 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:00 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:52 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:42 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:33 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:25 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:32 pm


I havent placed myself in a pickle, you lacking understanding puts me there. Saul did what he did out of a heart for serving God. He was in error thats all. But had the right heart condition as all could see once put on the correct path.
No, you have placed yourself into a pickle. You selected both A) and B). You are now in quite the bind. One in which you cannot wiggle yourself out from... You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

By selecting A), God can simply draw anyone to him, by simply manipulating their free will <--- as you already explained prior...

God doesn't manipulate ones free will to serve him, if i said he did i was in error. Is that how you originally stated A.?
Well, either way, you must now back-peddle a bit. You are in a bind, regardless. Why? I asked if God causes some to become inexorably drawn to him. You stated yes.

Its you who must back pedal, it was you who altered the words in your original A. You did not say manipulate in your first post. So it is true God does draw some to him, he doesnt manipulate them into doing so.
Now you are just trying to win an argument with 'word play'. :) If I cause you to become inexorably drawn to me, I have manipulated/changed/other your free will. ;) So why doesn't God just manipulate/change/infringe upon everyone's free will; who is not already drawn to him?

This is how Jesus shows it will be done to draw the good hearts to God-Luke 10--Acts 20:20
Bible quotes will not protect you from the lack in logic you demonstrate here. You stated yourself (again):

Post 196 ---> "God will interfere with free will".

If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all. Interfere, manipulate, change, infringe upon, other, it's all the same.

He rarely interferes with free will. Only if it benefits his true followers.
You are still not getting it. If he ever interferes with free will, which then causes one to become inexorably drawn to him, then just do it for all.

Further, in regards to 'creation', your case is not convincing in the least. Creating a false dichotomy for yourself is not convincing. I.E. "Humans cannot create things, therefore MY GOD."

He is doing it for all, like this-Luke 10-Acts 20:20--the door to door work, the true followers are sent with the good news of Gods kingdom door to door, most reject it. The darkness assured those that those doing that work are wrong and are not of God or his son. Its they who are in error. Jesus started that work, and it does not stop until the end- Matthew 24:14

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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #235

Post by POI »

kjw47 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:31 pm
POI wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:20 am
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:29 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:26 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:18 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:00 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:52 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:42 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:33 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:25 pm

No, you have placed yourself into a pickle. You selected both A) and B). You are now in quite the bind. One in which you cannot wiggle yourself out from... You cannot have your cake and eat it too...

By selecting A), God can simply draw anyone to him, by simply manipulating their free will <--- as you already explained prior...

God doesn't manipulate ones free will to serve him, if i said he did i was in error. Is that how you originally stated A.?
Well, either way, you must now back-peddle a bit. You are in a bind, regardless. Why? I asked if God causes some to become inexorably drawn to him. You stated yes.

Its you who must back pedal, it was you who altered the words in your original A. You did not say manipulate in your first post. So it is true God does draw some to him, he doesnt manipulate them into doing so.
Now you are just trying to win an argument with 'word play'. :) If I cause you to become inexorably drawn to me, I have manipulated/changed/other your free will. ;) So why doesn't God just manipulate/change/infringe upon everyone's free will; who is not already drawn to him?

This is how Jesus shows it will be done to draw the good hearts to God-Luke 10--Acts 20:20
Bible quotes will not protect you from the lack in logic you demonstrate here. You stated yourself (again):

Post 196 ---> "God will interfere with free will".

If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all. Interfere, manipulate, change, infringe upon, other, it's all the same.

He rarely interferes with free will. Only if it benefits his true followers.
You are still not getting it. If he ever interferes with free will, which then causes one to become inexorably drawn to him, then just do it for all.

Further, in regards to 'creation', your case is not convincing in the least. Creating a false dichotomy for yourself is not convincing. I.E. "Humans cannot create things, therefore MY GOD."

He is doing it for all, like this-Luke 10-Acts 20:20--the door to door work, the true followers are sent with the good news of Gods kingdom door to door, most reject it. The darkness assured those that those doing that work are wrong and are not of God or his son. Its they who are in error. Jesus started that work, and it does not stop until the end- Matthew 24:14
Yep, you are still not getting it. Allow me to elaborate, for your clarification:

in·ex·o·ra·bly - adverb: "in a way that is impossible to stop or prevent"

God intervenes upon some people's free will, but not others. Meaning, He intervenes, and it becomes impossible to stop or prevent God's desired result.

Hopefully you get it now. He apparently does this for some, and not others. Meaning, the ones for which He causes this impossible to avoid intervention, makes these folks follow Him. Hence, He can just do this for ALL.

And in regards to your dichotomous topic of 'creation', I 'created' a new thread: viewtopic.php?t=39684
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #236

Post by kjw47 »

POI wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:44 pm
kjw47 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:31 pm
POI wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:20 am
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:29 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:26 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:18 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:00 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:52 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:42 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:33 pm


God doesn't manipulate ones free will to serve him, if i said he did i was in error. Is that how you originally stated A.?
Well, either way, you must now back-peddle a bit. You are in a bind, regardless. Why? I asked if God causes some to become inexorably drawn to him. You stated yes.

Its you who must back pedal, it was you who altered the words in your original A. You did not say manipulate in your first post. So it is true God does draw some to him, he doesnt manipulate them into doing so.
Now you are just trying to win an argument with 'word play'. :) If I cause you to become inexorably drawn to me, I have manipulated/changed/other your free will. ;) So why doesn't God just manipulate/change/infringe upon everyone's free will; who is not already drawn to him?

This is how Jesus shows it will be done to draw the good hearts to God-Luke 10--Acts 20:20
Bible quotes will not protect you from the lack in logic you demonstrate here. You stated yourself (again):

Post 196 ---> "God will interfere with free will".

If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all. Interfere, manipulate, change, infringe upon, other, it's all the same.

He rarely interferes with free will. Only if it benefits his true followers.
You are still not getting it. If he ever interferes with free will, which then causes one to become inexorably drawn to him, then just do it for all.

Further, in regards to 'creation', your case is not convincing in the least. Creating a false dichotomy for yourself is not convincing. I.E. "Humans cannot create things, therefore MY GOD."

He is doing it for all, like this-Luke 10-Acts 20:20--the door to door work, the true followers are sent with the good news of Gods kingdom door to door, most reject it. The darkness assured those that those doing that work are wrong and are not of God or his son. Its they who are in error. Jesus started that work, and it does not stop until the end- Matthew 24:14
Yep, you are still not getting it. Allow me to elaborate, for your clarification:

in·ex·o·ra·bly - adverb: "in a way that is impossible to stop or prevent"

God intervenes upon some people's free will, but not others. Meaning, He intervenes, and it becomes impossible to stop or prevent God's desired result.

Hopefully you get it now. He apparently does this for some, and not others. Meaning, the ones for which He causes this impossible to avoid intervention, makes these folks follow Him. Hence, He can just do this for ALL.

And in regards to your dichotomous topic of 'creation', I 'created' a new thread: viewtopic.php?t=39684

God doesnt do it like you think. The mortal must do many things to be saved. First they must obey.

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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #237

Post by POI »

kjw47 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:06 pm
POI wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:44 pm
kjw47 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:31 pm
POI wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:20 am
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 9:29 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:26 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:18 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 8:00 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:52 pm
POI wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:42 pm

Well, either way, you must now back-peddle a bit. You are in a bind, regardless. Why? I asked if God causes some to become inexorably drawn to him. You stated yes.

Its you who must back pedal, it was you who altered the words in your original A. You did not say manipulate in your first post. So it is true God does draw some to him, he doesnt manipulate them into doing so.
Now you are just trying to win an argument with 'word play'. :) If I cause you to become inexorably drawn to me, I have manipulated/changed/other your free will. ;) So why doesn't God just manipulate/change/infringe upon everyone's free will; who is not already drawn to him?

This is how Jesus shows it will be done to draw the good hearts to God-Luke 10--Acts 20:20
Bible quotes will not protect you from the lack in logic you demonstrate here. You stated yourself (again):

Post 196 ---> "God will interfere with free will".

If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all. Interfere, manipulate, change, infringe upon, other, it's all the same.

He rarely interferes with free will. Only if it benefits his true followers.
You are still not getting it. If he ever interferes with free will, which then causes one to become inexorably drawn to him, then just do it for all.

Further, in regards to 'creation', your case is not convincing in the least. Creating a false dichotomy for yourself is not convincing. I.E. "Humans cannot create things, therefore MY GOD."

He is doing it for all, like this-Luke 10-Acts 20:20--the door to door work, the true followers are sent with the good news of Gods kingdom door to door, most reject it. The darkness assured those that those doing that work are wrong and are not of God or his son. Its they who are in error. Jesus started that work, and it does not stop until the end- Matthew 24:14
Yep, you are still not getting it. Allow me to elaborate, for your clarification:

in·ex·o·ra·bly - adverb: "in a way that is impossible to stop or prevent"

God intervenes upon some people's free will, but not others. Meaning, He intervenes, and it becomes impossible to stop or prevent God's desired result.

Hopefully you get it now. He apparently does this for some, and not others. Meaning, the ones for which He causes this impossible to avoid intervention, makes these folks follow Him. Hence, He can just do this for ALL.

And in regards to your dichotomous topic of 'creation', I 'created' a new thread: viewtopic.php?t=39684

God doesnt do it like you think.
While continuing with this hypothetical of god's existence, for which you have not yet proven; how in the heck do you know exactly how he does things?.?.?.?.?.?.? Again, we must trek back a few posts --- (197)

(ME)

So is your argument A), B), or both?

A) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him?

B) God only reveals himself to the ones who he knows will then follow?

(YOU) Post 202

I would say your A is correct, And B is correct.

***********************************

There is a reason I used the word inexorably. It's impossible to stop or present. You agreed that some are drawn by God. This hypothetical god apparently causes some to be drawn, and others not. He can just as logically do this for all. Otherwise, all would be drawn without his necessary intervention for some, by intervening/imposing/infringing upon their freewill. Once made to be drawn. they will all follow and whoreship as He pleases. Viola!
kjw47 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:06 pm The mortal must do many things to be saved. First they must obey.
I'm not arguing about how you are saved. If you want to inter that arena, please follow this link (viewtopic.php?t=39327). And please do so, as no Christian really wants to tell us.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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JoeyKnothead
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #238

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Y'all please clean up the quotes where ya can. on a phone it's just a long bunch of lines to scroll through.

But I'm no mod.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #239

Post by brunumb »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:56 pm Y'all please clean up the quotes where ya can. on a phone it's just a long bunch of lines to scroll through.

But I'm no mod.
You beat me to it Joey. :approve: :ok: :wave: :thanks:
I was just about to suggest that some people tried using the "reply without quoting" button.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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POI
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #240

Post by POI »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:56 pm Y'all please clean up the quotes where ya can. on a phone it's just a long bunch of lines to scroll through.

But I'm no mod.
Will do on the next response :)
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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