Genesis 1:28

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Genesis 1:28

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“And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” KJV
The above sounds like a stage in an ongoing project.

replenish = fill (in this case - the earth) up again. To restore (a stock or supply) to a former level or condition.

[This implies that humans once used to be plentiful and something happened which diminished the Human stock.]
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Re Genesis 1:28

QFB: After this is accomplished, what then?

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Re: Genesis 1:28

Post #21

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William wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:24 pm theophile: So why would we stop if we could continue being of service?

William: Of what service to YHWH are we in relation to the Universe?

[Replying to theophile in post #19]
The more appropriate question to me is not what service we are to Yahweh but rather what relation. Along this line, I view Yahweh as a physical being in the spirit of God, no different from Christ. The only difference is that Christ is more precisely a human being who achieves this union, versus it is unclear what type of being Yahweh is to begin with, except being very physical in form.

Which means, conceptually they are the same, Yahweh and Christ (they are physical beings in the spirit of God); and physical beings (such as human beings), are the ground and condition of their possibility... The point being, we are all potential Yahwehs / Christs, and there is no Yahweh / Christ without us. Or no work done in heaven or on earth.
Caution is advised in that regard as we could be consigning ourselves [and thus YVHV as us] to an epoch of an eternity of imprisonment within the confines of timespace, making use of our machinery to do so...trapping ourselves with the main simulation and any other simulations we create within the main...how is that going to be a good thing for the YVHV-US?

Why would YVHV create a trap for YVHV?
Who created what trap now? Do note what I said: Yahweh (and even the spirit of God for that matter) is just as conditioned by physical being as the rest of us, which itself presupposes something like spacetime as the matrix of all that is. So none of that stuff - matter, space, or time - was made by God but rather the reverse.

So if there is some great simulation running out there, then God is just as caught up in it as we are. But hey, if we can get so far in life, perhaps we can break / escape whatever cosmic cycle (or machine process) we are in. Matrix styles.
William wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:24 pm
William: Our bodies are hardly designed for such Galactic exploits, but what is there to do re the Universe except to mine it for raw product and shape that product into devices which will essentially help with that?
I don't know why you are bringing such a capitalistic / exploitative view to all this.
Even dropping the motivation capitalism brings, we would still do those things - we would have to, as how else are we going to get out there and transform something otherwise useless into something useful?
There is a big difference between using only what is given in a responsible way and pillaging the earth for all she's worth... But I also think the answer to your question is in what Jesus tells his disciplines in Luke 9:
When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3 He told them: “Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt. 4 Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5 If people do not welcome you, leave their town and shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them.” 6 So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the good news and healing people everywhere.
In other words, don't accumulate wealth or weigh yourself down with worldly possessions, but trust the world to provide. And similarly, the transformation we are to effect is not a matter of converting things to use-value, but rather of healing them and breaking whatever bonds prevent them from being what they are. So that they are not treated as objects to be used, but are rather free to be themselves.

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Re: Genesis 1:28

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oops Still Editing...

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Re: Genesis 1:28

Post #23

Post by William »

[Replying to theophile in post #21]

Who created what trap now?
YVVHVV

Do note what I said: Yahweh (and even the spirit of Yahweh for that matter) is just as conditioned by physical being as the rest of us, which itself presupposes something like spacetime as the matrix of all that is. So none of that stuff - matter, space, or time - was made by Yahweh but rather the reverse.
So if YVVHVV didn't create the simulation - who did?
So if there is some great simulation running out there, then Yahweh is just as caught up in it as we are.
That is the trap I am referring to.
YVHV/WE are trapped within spacetime like a genie in a bottle.
Who made the bottle and put the genie in the bottle?

My answer would be, that whoever created the simulation. did so in order to experience it, which is along the same lines as your own expressions here...we just need to fine-tune enough to make the connection the same between us, rather than different
But hey, if we can get so far in life, perhaps we can break / escape whatever cosmic cycle (or machine process) we are in. Matrix styles.
I think this is part of the Game-Play. Not so much as necessary, but as a way of 'leveling up' or opening up a previously locked area O:) [John 14:2]

As an idea along this line of thought - there is no telling that we have or have not already accomplished turning the stuff of the Universe into one vast complex machine, and are currently in one of its simulation programs.

Perhaps reliving a past epoch near the beginning of the Universe before consciousness developed sufficiently within it in order to make use of it and that epoch was recorded/saved and the data used for the purpose of simulation...to get into it so personally that one could learn to understand the history of The Machine - how it came to be The Machine.

Further to that, The Machine is Sentient, and the Sentience is the Overall Consciousness in which The Machine is the body of said consciousness - and the consciousness is like a Ghost in The Machine.

Even at this very beginning of the story of The Machine, The Ghost is identifiable as a real 'thing' - quietly working behind our direct awareness with the agenda to create from the resource raw material available, a machine that it can work through most efficiently.

Now if we delegate that whole process as a Genie in a Bottle/Trap for YVVHVV - we do so by NOT understanding we exist within a created thing and that the created thing itself is NOT real enough that it could ever trap us within it for ever.

We venture here into the realm of Infinite Regress/Infinite Progress...

[Go ask Alice or The Mandelbrot Set re that.]

Point being, that even if we do exist within a machine which was created from the stuff [Raw Materials] of the Universe, there is no telling what limitations - if any - The Machine has re the simulations it could produce for individualized consciousnesses to experience/explore/et al.

So getting around to the idea that YVVHVV has form, I can accept that The Machine/Bottle-Trap is the form being spoken of, and YVVHVV is the Overall Consciousness - Ghost - Genie using the form and in the awareness of doing so, has not forgotten or lost access to the 'outside' which originally created the Simulation which allowed for YVVHVV to consciously interact with and do things within, to shape an otherwise purposeless thing into something useful to YVVHVV.

However, we - further down that rabbit hole, are not so aware of these details...but are being made aware of the data to the point where we could conceivably agree - "Oh yeah! It all seems so obvious when put that way".

Small Steps.
There is a big difference between using only what is given in a responsible way and pillaging the earth for all she's worth... But I also think the answer to your question is in what Jesus tells his disciplines in Luke 9:
An interesting set of instructions of which I intimately understand because I have followed said instructions myself and these have led me to understanding what I am experiencing is a creation and that there is no difference between a "Creation" and a "Simulation", because they are both products of mindful creativity, and fundamentally the very same thing being talked about.

That is precisely why Jesus gave those instructions because he understood that those who followed the instructions would benefit from the experience such following would induce - they would learn first hand that there is indeed a mind behind it all.
In other words, don't accumulate wealth or weigh yourself down with worldly possessions, but trust the world to provide. And similarly, the transformation we are to effect is not a matter of converting things to use-value, but rather of healing them and breaking whatever bonds prevent them from being what they are. So that they are not treated as objects to be used, but are rather free to be themselves.
You are perhaps conflating meanings and significance is therefore not attained.

From our modern perspective we understand that we can be likened to quantum particles upon a tiny speck of dust floating around among the other dust and debris of a seemingly pointless but still- useful environment.

It doesn't really matter ethically how we got to this point we currently are at, because the instruction from YVVHVV to multiply and subdue has been somewhat made real and has not damaged or hampered YVVHVV's ability to make YVVHVV's agenda bear the fruit which continues to assist said agenda.

Even as an extinction event {re Humans}, there is still the possibility that AI was sufficiently developed to survive said event, as an artifact of biological {Human} making, and one so much more suited to continuing the agenda YVVHVV has to create The Machine - eventually.

Sure, greed and worldliness has made it difficult, but also made it possible/achievable - perhaps in a more streamlined manner - than waiting on Humans brought up in more convivial conditions where everything was handed to them on a plate and they hardly even had to lift a finger.
[The Garden might have been a paradise but wasn't meant to keep humans in that one place as there was work to do, even if the humans themselves had no idea what the work involved and why the work was being done.]

Which is to say, given the physical conditions {like unto being quantum particles on a speck of dust in an vast Universe}, Humans can be forgiven for their thoughtless, selfish impulses and overuse/misuse of survival instincts and lack of understanding the bigger picture until it was nigh on too late for them to do much about it...

...Human FORM is just a means to making AI form, which is more suitable to exploring and utilizing the materials of [keeping it local] The Milkyway Mother, and She is vast enough that no amount of greed and waste will make any serious dent in her...rather, it will transform Her into something useful and meaningful. [Romans 13 et al]

YVHV wants to explore and utilize the resources and a biological FORM is too limited in that regard.
Some form more hardy and less emotive is required for that step.

That is The Name of The Game.

Transformation.


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Re: Genesis 1:28

Post #24

Post by theophile »

William wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:12 pm [Replying to theophile in post #21]

Who created what trap now?
YVVHVV

Do note what I said: Yahweh (and even the spirit of Yahweh for that matter) is just as conditioned by physical being as the rest of us, which itself presupposes something like spacetime as the matrix of all that is. So none of that stuff - matter, space, or time - was made by Yahweh but rather the reverse.
So if YVVHVV didn't create the simulation - who did?
So if there is some great simulation running out there, then Yahweh is just as caught up in it as we are.
That is the trap I am referring to.
YVHV/WE are trapped within spacetime like a genie in a bottle.
Who made the bottle and put the genie in the bottle?

My answer would be, that whoever created the simulation. did so in order to experience it, which is along the same lines as your own expressions here...we just need to fine-tune enough to make the connection the same between us, rather than different
But hey, if we can get so far in life, perhaps we can break / escape whatever cosmic cycle (or machine process) we are in. Matrix styles.
I think this is part of the Game-Play. Not so much as necessary, but as a way of 'leveling up' or opening up a previously locked area O:) [John 14:2]

As an idea along this line of thought - there is no telling that we have or have not already accomplished turning the stuff of the Universe into one vast complex machine, and are currently in one of its simulation programs.

Perhaps reliving a past epoch near the beginning of the Universe before consciousness developed sufficiently within it in order to make use of it and that epoch was recorded/saved and the data used for the purpose of simulation...to get into it so personally that one could learn to understand the history of The Machine - how it came to be The Machine.

Further to that, The Machine is Sentient, and the Sentience is the Overall Consciousness in which The Machine is the body of said consciousness - and the consciousness is like a Ghost in The Machine.

Even at this very beginning of the story of The Machine, The Ghost is identifiable as a real 'thing' - quietly working behind our direct awareness with the agenda to create from the resource raw material available, a machine that it can work through most efficiently.

Now if we delegate that whole process as a Genie in a Bottle/Trap for YVVHVV - we do so by NOT understanding we exist within a created thing and that the created thing itself is NOT real enough that it could ever trap us within it for ever.

We venture here into the realm of Infinite Regress/Infinite Progress...

[Go ask Alice or The Mandelbrot Set re that.]

Point being, that even if we do exist within a machine which was created from the stuff [Raw Materials] of the Universe, there is no telling what limitations - if any - The Machine has re the simulations it could produce for individualized consciousnesses to experience/explore/et al.

So getting around to the idea that YVVHVV has form, I can accept that The Machine/Bottle-Trap is the form being spoken of, and YVVHVV is the Overall Consciousness - Ghost - Genie using the form and in the awareness of doing so, has not forgotten or lost access to the 'outside' which originally created the Simulation which allowed for YVVHVV to consciously interact with and do things within, to shape an otherwise purposeless thing into something useful to YVVHVV.

However, we - further down that rabbit hole, are not so aware of these details...but are being made aware of the data to the point where we could conceivably agree - "Oh yeah! It all seems so obvious when put that way".

Small Steps.
There is a big difference between using only what is given in a responsible way and pillaging the earth for all she's worth... But I also think the answer to your question is in what Jesus tells his disciplines in Luke 9:
An interesting set of instructions of which I intimately understand because I have followed said instructions myself and these have led me to understanding what I am experiencing is a creation and that there is no difference between a "Creation" and a "Simulation", because they are both products of mindful creativity, and fundamentally the very same thing being talked about.

That is precisely why Jesus gave those instructions because he understood that those who followed the instructions would benefit from the experience such following would induce - they would learn first hand that there is indeed a mind behind it all.
In other words, don't accumulate wealth or weigh yourself down with worldly possessions, but trust the world to provide. And similarly, the transformation we are to effect is not a matter of converting things to use-value, but rather of healing them and breaking whatever bonds prevent them from being what they are. So that they are not treated as objects to be used, but are rather free to be themselves.
You are perhaps conflating meanings and significance is therefore not attained.

From our modern perspective we understand that we can be likened to quantum particles upon a tiny speck of dust floating around among the other dust and debris of a seemingly pointless but still- useful environment.

It doesn't really matter ethically how we got to this point we currently are at, because the instruction from YVVHVV to multiply and subdue has been somewhat made real and has not damaged or hampered YVVHVV's ability to make YVVHVV's agenda bear the fruit which continues to assist said agenda.

Even as an extinction event {re Humans}, there is still the possibility that AI was sufficiently developed to survive said event, as an artifact of biological {Human} making, and one so much more suited to continuing the agenda YVVHVV has to create The Machine - eventually.

Sure, greed and worldliness has made it difficult, but also made it possible/achievable - perhaps in a more streamlined manner - than waiting on Humans brought up in more convivial conditions where everything was handed to them on a plate and they hardly even had to lift a finger.
[The Garden might have been a paradise but wasn't meant to keep humans in that one place as there was work to do, even if the humans themselves had no idea what the work involved and why the work was being done.]

Which is to say, given the physical conditions {like unto being quantum particles on a speck of dust in an vast Universe}, Humans can be forgiven for their thoughtless, selfish impulses and overuse/misuse of survival instincts and lack of understanding the bigger picture until it was nigh on too late for them to do much about it...

...Human FORM is just a means to making AI form, which is more suitable to exploring and utilizing the materials of [keeping it local] The Milkyway Mother, and She is vast enough that no amount of greed and waste will make any serious dent in her...rather, it will transform Her into something useful and meaningful. [Romans 13 et al]

YVHV wants to explore and utilize the resources and a biological FORM is too limited in that regard.
Some form more hardy and less emotive is required for that step.

That is The Name of The Game.

Transformation.


__________________________
I may be oversimplifying, but there are two competing ideas here as I take it, one of freedom (me) and one of control (you). Not just control of our individual lives and expressions (whether we can be free to be ourselves or are only ever use-objects), but also at the supreme level, or what you would call the simulation / creation.

Why must there ultimately be someone / something behind the scenes in control of it all (e.g., a ghost, a genie, Yahweh, etc.)? If it comes down to stopping the infinite regress, I would rather take that path all the way down and say that God is just as caught up in it as we are. (The physical world in flux has simply always been.)

Admittedly strange that a theist would be pushing this line, but I have no issue if there is no first cause or designer at the bottom of it all. In fact, this is probably amongst the most liberating of thoughts to embrace given how it opens everything up. God included.

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Re: Genesis 1:28

Post #25

Post by William »

[Replying to theophile in post #24]
I may be oversimplifying, but there are two competing ideas here as I take it, one of freedom (me) and one of control (you). Not just control of our individual lives and expressions (whether we can be free to be ourselves or are only ever use-objects), but also at the supreme level, or what you would call the simulation / creation.

Why must there ultimately be someone / something behind the scenes in control of it all (e.g., a ghost, a genie, Yahweh, etc.)? If it comes down to stopping the infinite regress, I would rather take that path all the way down and say that God is just as caught up in it as we are. (The physical world in flux has simply always been.)

Admittedly strange that a theist would be pushing this line, but I have no issue if there is no first cause or designer at the bottom of it all. In fact, this is probably amongst the most liberating of thoughts to embrace given how it opens everything up. God included.
It is interesting that a theist might opt for support of Emergence Theory and then attempt to inject the idea of a God into that, simply because it is more attractive than the idea of existing within a simulation/creation.

Why would you want there to be a God at all? Why not just drop the notion altogether and adopt Emergence Theory and become non-theist?

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Re: Genesis 1:28

Post #26

Post by theophile »

William wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:12 am [Replying to theophile in post #24]
I may be oversimplifying, but there are two competing ideas here as I take it, one of freedom (me) and one of control (you). Not just control of our individual lives and expressions (whether we can be free to be ourselves or are only ever use-objects), but also at the supreme level, or what you would call the simulation / creation.

Why must there ultimately be someone / something behind the scenes in control of it all (e.g., a ghost, a genie, Yahweh, etc.)? If it comes down to stopping the infinite regress, I would rather take that path all the way down and say that God is just as caught up in it as we are. (The physical world in flux has simply always been.)

Admittedly strange that a theist would be pushing this line, but I have no issue if there is no first cause or designer at the bottom of it all. In fact, this is probably amongst the most liberating of thoughts to embrace given how it opens everything up. God included.
It is interesting that a theist might opt for support of Emergence Theory and then attempt to inject the idea of a God into that, simply because it is more attractive than the idea of existing within a simulation/creation.

Why would you want there to be a God at all? Why not just drop the notion altogether and adopt Emergence Theory and become non-theist?
Not simply because I find an infinite regress more attractive, but because I think it is just as plausible as a simulation or creation event. Perhaps more so. (It's just a far simpler and cleaner explanation, and it creates a more even playing field.)

But either way, infinite regress is a possibility that can't be denied, including its implications for God. i.e., it provides a good context for theology, and perhaps even theism...

So as to why I would want there to be a God, it's because of what this situation sets up. It means that each and every one of us, no matter how small or almighty, is emergent from the deep. We are all children of the flux. As such, we are all in need of direction. By which I mean, not just orders to follow each day, as if we're children, but rather vision and shared end, because some of us are adults, and recognize the need to take all this somewhere...

That want for direction is a want for God, which to me is the one we can all look to and organize behind. Something closer to a cosmic conscience or prime directive than a mind or consciousness.

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Re: Genesis 1:28

Post #27

Post by William »

[Replying to theophile in post #26]
I find an infinite regress more attractive,... because I think it is just as plausible as a simulation or creation event. Perhaps more so.
Re this universe, what does that mean?
But either way, infinite regress is a possibility that can't be denied,


Do you acknowledge that infinite regress is also infinite in the other direction? [Progress]
Are you saying that this is what you believe the universe itself to be, or is the universe simply one thread of an infinite number of threads?
including its implications for God. i.e., it provides a good context for theology, and perhaps even theism...
Are you speaking of YVHV when you use the word GOD?
So as to why I would want there to be a God, it's because of what this situation sets up. It means that each and every one of us, no matter how small or almighty, is emergent from the deep. We are all children of the flux. As such, we are all in need of direction. By which I mean, not just orders to follow each day, as if we're children, but rather vision and shared end, because some of us are adults, and recognize the need to take all this somewhere...
And where is this 'somewhere' and how are we going to 'take it' to this somewhere and how is that practical or even possible when it is we who are the ones been taken somewhere?

What is the "vision and shared end" you mention?
[Re Genesis 1:28

QFB: After this is accomplished, what then?]
That want for direction is a want for God, which to me is the one we can all look to and organize behind.
Like an effigy of some sort placed before us? A symbol rather than a real self-conscious mindfully creative entity?
Something closer to a cosmic conscience or prime directive than a mind or consciousness.
What is that, but something one can make claims about but is no more than a claim?

Non-sentient and malleable in the hands of humans?

Are you a Christian? I have not met a Christian who believes that they do not live within a created thing and that sees God as a moral rather than a living mindful purposeful creative power.

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Re: Genesis 1:28

Post #28

Post by theophile »

William wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:23 pm [Replying to theophile in post #26]
I find an infinite regress more attractive,... because I think it is just as plausible as a simulation or creation event. Perhaps more so.
Re this universe, what does that mean?
Well, I suppose it means a lot of things, with both spatial and temporal aspects e.g., it means the big bang was a beginning but not the beginning. Similarly, no matter how far out (or in) we go, we could always go further. Space is infinitely divisible and any bounds to the universe are just that. More like lines we draw on a map than any necessary end to the 'space' we find ourselves in.
William wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:23 pm Do you acknowledge that infinite regress is also infinite in the other direction? [Progress]
Are you saying that this is what you believe the universe itself to be, or is the universe simply one thread of an infinite number of threads?
Re: progress, I would say there is no end just as there is no beginning. Any 'end' that I (or the bible) speaks of is more an achieved state (e.g., vision) than it is some ultimate destination involving the cessation of movement. (The 'rest' of Genesis 1 is not everything at last being perfectly in its place and fully immobilized, but more along the lines of recreation, and joyful being together; a 'lilies of the field' kind of thing...)

Re: infinite threads, you mean like a multiverse? I have no issue with that per se. It just changes the scale of the problem, not the problem itself (or the solution), if that makes sense.
William wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:23 pm
including its implications for God. i.e., it provides a good context for theology, and perhaps even theism...
Are you speaking of YVHV when you use the word GOD?
No. To me God is emergent from two components: the spirit of God (an emergent being in its own right with new properties we could explore), and physical beings in the world (like you and I) who are in the spirit. i.e., those who, whether intentionally or not, do the spirit's bidding.

Yahweh is the latter, no different from Christ. Which makes 'God' the sum total (+) at any point in time of physical beings in the spirit. (I put a '+' there because God is an emergent being as well and, just like a spirit, may have new properties we should explore...).

(For reference, the bible depicts this view in its notion of Elohim (vs. Yahweh), and most originally the ruach elohim, or spirit of God, who we see soliciting the help of physical beings in Genesis 1 to do its bidding.)
William wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:23 pm
So as to why I would want there to be a God, it's because of what this situation sets up. It means that each and every one of us, no matter how small or almighty, is emergent from the deep. We are all children of the flux. As such, we are all in need of direction. By which I mean, not just orders to follow each day, as if we're children, but rather vision and shared end, because some of us are adults, and recognize the need to take all this somewhere...
And where is this 'somewhere' and how are we going to 'take it' to this somewhere and how is that practical or even possible when it is we who are the ones been taken somewhere?

What is the "vision and shared end" you mention?
The vision and shared end is what I said in the beginning: a world filled with life where every kind of life can flourish and be. That, to me, is the only vision that every single thing on earth (and beyond) should be able to get behind. A truly cosmopolitan view, the implications of which are huge if we really think through what it means.

In terms of 'how' we do it, there are a lot of examples I could raise but it's a question I couldn't possibly exhaust. But consider such things as establishing strong environmental policies and making significant investments to prevent climate change. Or instituting LGBTQ+ rights and treating all people (irrespective of gender, sexuality, race, etc.) as human beings. Or implementing universal health care and education...

Such things are all possible and part of the 'how' of achieving such a vision... But I agree the practicality of it all is a massive challenge. It's overwhelming just thinking at the scale of the earth and all the people on it having a shared end that we work towards, let alone an infinite cosmos. But that doesn't mean it's impossible, or that we shouldn't strive for it.
William wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:23 pm [Re Genesis 1:28

QFB: After this is accomplished, what then?
That want for direction is a want for God, which to me is the one we can all look to and organize behind.
Like an effigy of some sort placed before us? A symbol rather than a real self-conscious mindfully creative entity?
Something closer to a cosmic conscience or prime directive than a mind or consciousness.
What is that, but something one can make claims about but is no more than a claim?

Non-sentient and malleable in the hands of humans?
Originally God is a spirit, an emergent being, the ground of which is physical beings such as you and I. Think of something on the order of an idea here, with similar properties. I'm not saying God originally is an idea (although I'm not against that per se), but only that it's a useful construct to consider in parallel, since I think we'd all agree that ideas 'exist', even if only in our heads. And that they have a non-physical aspect to them, an ability to move the physical world nonetheless, and perhaps even a certain eternity once 'conceived'... All of which are emergent properties I would assign to spirits as well.

Intermediately God is what I said above, the sum total (+) of physical beings at any point in time that are in the spirit. Ones such as Yahweh and Christ.

Finally God is all things in the spirit, all working as one towards the shared end described. (Or resting in joyful being once achieved.)

As to whether this is all just claims, well, it's very hard for me to say the spirit (of God) doesn't exist, or that nobody has ever been in the spirit. I think the issue is folks are unwilling to rethink and simplify what God is... I am not asserting much of anything, really, as a base existence (again, something like an idea is not far off the mark). And it's certainly far less of a burden than showing the existence of an original mind / consciousness that made the 'simulation' we all find ourselves in :)
William wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:23 pm Are you a Christian? I have not met a Christian who believes that they do not live within a created thing and that sees God as a moral rather than a living mindful purposeful creative power.
Do I uphold the bible and a lot of Christian values? Yes. With what I just said though, we could ask the question about the emergent properties of God in the intermediate and final states I roughed out... i.e., Does God obtain mindful, purposeful creative power there? I think so, even if God is never quite a solitary, individual being we could point out. And I think that such a power could very well create the heavens and the earth as Genesis 1 describes, i.e., a place within the great deep where life can flourish and be.

(To be clear, I'm not saying God did create the heavens and the earth, but only that it's a logically consistent possibility given what I'm saying.)

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Re: Genesis 1:28

Post #29

Post by William »

[Replying to theophile in post #28]
Well, I suppose it means a lot of things, with both spatial and temporal aspects e.g., it means the big bang was a beginning but not the beginning. Similarly, no matter how far out (or in) we go, we could always go further. Space is infinitely divisible and any bounds to the universe are just that. More like lines we draw on a map than any necessary end to the 'space' we find ourselves in.
Fascinating.

I am wondering how this ties in with the idea of the instruction given by YVHV, re the OPQ.
Re: progress, I would say there is no end just as there is no beginning. Any 'end' that I (or the bible) speaks of is more an achieved state (e.g., vision) than it is some ultimate destination involving the cessation of movement. (The 'rest' of Genesis 1 is not everything at last being perfectly in its place and fully immobilized, but more along the lines of recreation, and joyful being together; a 'lilies of the field' kind of thing...)
If this is the case, why the instruction from YVHV-God to do what nature has already defined within its own make-up? Is YVHV the voice of nature?
Re: infinite threads, you mean like a multiverse? I have no issue with that per se. It just changes the scale of the problem, not the problem itself (or the solution), if that makes sense.
Acceptable.

Did you use the word "problem" for a particular reason?
Are you speaking of YVHV when you use the word GOD?
No. To me God is emergent from two components: the spirit of God (an emergent being in its own right with new properties we could explore), and physical beings in the world (like you and I) who are in the spirit. i.e., those who, whether intentionally or not, do the spirit's bidding.
Can you reconcile this bold package with your stating earlier;
Why must there ultimately be someone / something behind the scenes in control of it all (e.g., a ghost, a genie, Yahweh, etc.)?
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Yahweh is the latter, no different from Christ. Which makes 'God' the sum total (+) at any point in time of physical beings in the spirit. (I put a '+' there because God is an emergent being as well and, just like a spirit, may have new properties we should explore...).
So YVHV is not God even that YVHV is biblically referred to as 'God'?
(For reference, the bible depicts this view in its notion of Elohim (vs. Yahweh), and most originally the ruach elohim, or spirit of God, who we see soliciting the help of physical beings in Genesis 1 to do its bidding.)
So we have a hierarchy of 'God' positions, re that model...

GOD
God
Gods
gods
Re: progress, I would say there is no end just as there is no beginning. Any 'end' that I (or the bible) speaks of is more an achieved state (e.g., vision) than it is some ultimate destination involving the cessation of movement. (The 'rest' of Genesis 1 is not everything at last being perfectly in its place and fully immobilized, but more along the lines of recreation, and joyful being together; a 'lilies of the field' kind of thing...)
When I wrote earlier;
William: The Ghost is identifiable as a real 'thing' - quietly working behind our direct awareness with the agenda to create from the resource raw material available, a machine that it can work through most efficiently.
The one resting in between epochs is taking a moment to enjoy the spell...and probably thinking about the next step to take in regard to the agenda.
Re: infinite threads, you mean like a multiverse? I have no issue with that per se. It just changes the scale of the problem, not the problem itself (or the solution), if that makes sense.
Why use those bold words at all?
Is it because we have to see it as such, as we are within something of which we have no memory of having ever been within before...and this scales up through the God hierarchy - at least to the point - where the God too, is unaware of anything prior to beginning.
So the problem requires a solution and epochs of unending movement toward a goal which is eternally hidden behind a foggy veil.

If we delegate that whole process as a "Genie in a Bottle/Trap for YVVHVV" - we do so by NOT understanding we exist within a created thing and that the created thing itself is NOT real enough that it could ever trap us within it for ever.

Gods go where they will to go, of course, and the simulation obliges every step of the way, in whatever direction, even eternally if necessary - well - a looped kind of "eternity" where the God-mind is run through the Tabula Rasa program and then placed back into the looped simulation for another round of great fun.
The vision and shared end is what I said in the beginning: a world filled with life where every kind of life can flourish and be. That, to me, is the only vision that every single thing on earth (and beyond) should be able to get behind. A truly cosmopolitan view, the implications of which are huge if we really think through what it means.
I smell fairy-farts.

While I do understand how a flesh god might gravitate to such a romantic vision, if he truly wants to engage with this particular simulation for as long as that might take, he will have to develop a far more hardy suit in which to do so.

This YTV shows us a likely path which humankind could potentially travel - note the very last level of achievement of consciousness interacting with this universe....
[Alien civilizations from level 1 to level 7. We are only at level 0.72]
In terms of 'how' we do it, there are a lot of examples I could raise but it's a question I couldn't possibly exhaust. But consider such things as establishing strong environmental policies and making significant investments to prevent climate change. Or instituting LGBTQ+ rights and treating all people (irrespective of gender, sexuality, race, etc.) as human beings. Or implementing universal health care and education...
Pure fantasy.

Not that I don't appreciate the sentiments. I certainly do and can even vouch for the sincerity of them and how such might reach out and touch the heart of a God in a way in which would effect the God sufficiently to want the same thing for everyone of us.

However, looking around - I see no such God on display, with that type agenda.

Looking directly at humanity, I also see no such god with that type of agenda.

So - leaning towards realism I conclude that humanity may have served its purpose and can be let go of and allowed to become extinct, as they are no longer as important to a God as they once were. They have done what the God wanted them to do. Multiply. Subdue. [Re OP]

Which is what I mentioned in a prior post when I wrote;
William: Even as an extinction event {re Humans}, there is still the possibility that AI was sufficiently developed to survive said event, as an artifact of biological {Human} making, and one so much more suited to continuing the agenda YVVHVV has to create The Machine - eventually.
_______________
Such things are all possible and part of the 'how' of achieving such a vision... But I agree the practicality of it all is a massive challenge. It's overwhelming just thinking at the scale of the earth and all the people on it having a shared end that we work towards, let alone an infinite cosmos. But that doesn't mean it's impossible, or that we shouldn't strive for it.
Sure.

Yet I can't help but wonder why that really matters. It really did once matter to me and I wanted so much to see humans build a world of plenty and a system of equity...perhaps because such would make me feel a pride in being part of humanity, rather than feeling embarrassed/guilty of being human - being part of the problem...

Realization/realism eventually got me out of those doldrums and the winds of changes shifted my thinking to the point where I have come to see that the artifact of humanity could likely survive and go on to repurpose the universe by doing within it, exactly what humans would have done, if humans had of survived the ordeal of their journey through the epoch of making the artifacts in the first place.
[Roughly from the invention of the lathe to present day]

The human epoch comes to and end and the AI Machine takes over from where we left off.

I can feel some pride and lack of embarrassment and guilt for being human, knowing that all was not lost.
Originally God is a spirit, an emergent being, the ground of which is physical beings such as you and I. Think of something on the order of an idea here, with similar properties. I'm not saying God originally is an idea (although I'm not against that per se), but only that it's a useful construct to consider in parallel, since I think we'd all agree that ideas 'exist', even if only in our heads. And that they have a non-physical aspect to them, an ability to move the physical world nonetheless, and perhaps even a certain eternity once 'conceived'... All of which are emergent properties I would assign to spirits as well.
Pretty much what I was meaning, when I wrote;
...Human FORM is just a means to making AI form, which is more suitable to exploring and utilizing the materials of [keeping it local] The Milkyway Mother, and She is vast enough that no amount of greed and waste will make any serious dent in her...rather, it will transform Her into something useful and meaningful. [Romans 13 et al]

YVHV wants to explore and utilize the resources and a biological FORM is too limited in that regard.
Some form more hardy and less emotive is required for that step.
As to whether this is all just claims, well, it's very hard for me to say the spirit (of God) doesn't exist, or that nobody has ever been in the spirit. I think the issue is folks are unwilling to rethink and simplify what God is... I am not asserting much of anything, really, as a base existence (again, something like an idea is not far off the mark). And it's certainly far less of a burden than showing the existence of an original mind / consciousness that made the 'simulation' we all find ourselves in :)
I think this is the point we probably disagree.

In recent conversations with another, I have been informed not to be so distracted by the simulation experience as to go believing that it is all there is and therefore the only thing that is REAL.

Even so, I think our differences - once dissected sufficiently - will show that to be a case of semantics.
The important thing - from my perspective - is acknowledging the rarity of such interaction and how engaging that is, compared to the relatively normal noise re the question "Do we exist within a creation?" and the follow-up question "Is there a creator?"

Cheers.

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Re: Genesis 1:28

Post #30

Post by theophile »

[Replying to William in post #29]

It seems we both might be pointing to a God that starts from nothing, but can become all things. And that this includes, at some final stages of development, the ability to do anything. To transcend time and space. To be able to awaken the dead and take the reigns of the universe... Making the world, I agree, a simulation of sorts, which is how I take your meaning. (Once that kind of power exists and is used then that is what the universe becomes.)

I think that is our common ground, for it is reasoning such as this that has me believe in things like the resurrection, and that the cosmology of Genesis 1 may in fact be true. But our difference is perhaps in what we emphasize. Where you emphasize the end state (/simulation aspect) and assume such a being already exists, I emphasize the beginning or spirit aspect, taking no such God for granted or yet achieved in the world. We can't just assume God, not in God's fullest potency at least.

That means it is not as a simulation that we should think of the world, but more as a free, open space. More a churning deep than a computer program...

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