Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[POI]

God doesnt do it like you think. The mortal must do many things to be saved. First they must obey.

Were you planning on responding to post 237?

[kjw47]

Its you who must back pedal, it was you who altered the words in your original A. You did not say manipulate in your first post. So it is true God does draw some to him, he doesnt manipulate them into doing so.

Now you are just trying to win an argument with 'word play'. If I cause you to become inexorably drawn to me, I have manipulated/changed/other your free will. So why doesn't God just manipulate/change/infringe upon everyone's free will; who is not already drawn to him?

This is how Jesus shows it will be done to draw the good hearts to God-Luke 10--Acts 20:20

Bible quotes will not protect you from the lack in logic you demonstrate here. You stated yourself (again):

Post 196 ---> "God will interfere with free will".

If God interferes with freewill, then just do it for all. Interfere, manipulate, change, infringe upon, other, it's all the same.

He rarely interferes with free will. Only if it benefits his true followers.

You are still not getting it. If he ever interferes with free will, which then causes one to become inexorably drawn to him, then just do it for all.

Further, in regards to 'creation', your case is not convincing in the least. Creating a false dichotomy for yourself is not convincing. I.E. "Humans cannot create things, therefore MY GOD."

He is doing it for all, like this-Luke 10-Acts 20:20--the door to door work, the true followers are sent with the good news of Gods kingdom door to door, most reject it. The darkness assured those that those doing that work are wrong and are not of God or his son. Its they who are in error. Jesus started that work, and it does not stop until the end- Matthew 24:14

Yep, you are still not getting it. Allow me to elaborate, for your clarification:

in·ex·o·ra·bly - adverb: "in a way that is impossible to stop or prevent"

God intervenes upon some people's free will, but not others. Meaning, He intervenes, and it becomes impossible to stop or prevent God's desired result.

Hopefully you get it now. He apparently does this for some, and not others. Meaning, the ones for which He causes this impossible to avoid intervention, makes these folks follow Him. Hence, He can just do this for ALL.

And in regards to your dichotomous topic of 'creation', I 'created' a new thread: viewtopic.php?t=39684

God doesnt do it like you think.

While continuing with this hypothetical of god's existence, for which you have not yet proven; how in the heck do you know exactly how he does things?.?.?.?.?.?.? Again, we must trek back a few posts --- (197)

(ME)

So is your argument A), B), or both?

A) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him?

B) God only reveals himself to the ones who he knows will then follow?

(YOU) Post 202

I would say your A is correct, And B is correct.

***********************************

There is a reason I used the word inexorably. It's impossible to stop or present. You agreed that some are drawn by God. This hypothetical god apparently causes some to be drawn, and others not. He can just as logically do this for all. Otherwise, all would be drawn without his necessary intervention for some, by intervening/imposing/infringing upon their freewill. Once made to be drawn. they will all follow and whoreship as He pleases. Viola!

The mortal must do many things to be saved. First they must obey.

I'm not arguing about how you are saved. If you want to inter that arena, please follow this link (viewtopic.php?t=39327). And please do so, as no Christian really wants to tell us.

God opened the door to all, he sent his son to die on their behalf so they might not ever have to taste death even though they are sinners.
Sauls heart was for God, dont forget Israel was Gods chosen, What he was doing against the christians was for his love of God or so he thought. Obviously God saw that his heart was worth helping. God and Jesus loved Israel, it was they who rejected both. What a great example to set for Israelites to see that Jesus' #1 opposer changed and then supported Jesus. It must have made them think.

[brunumb]

God opened the door to all, he sent his son to die on their behalf so they might not ever have to taste death even though they are sinners.

Good. Now that's taken care of we can just live our lives and pop through that open door after we die.

[POI]

God opened the door to all, he sent his son to die on their behalf so they might not ever have to taste death even though they are sinners.
Sauls heart was for God, dont forget Israel was Gods chosen, What he was doing against the christians was for his love of God or so he thought. Obviously God saw that his heart was worth helping. God and Jesus loved Israel, it was they who rejected both. What a great example to set for Israelites to see that Jesus' #1 opposer changed and then supported Jesus. It must have made them think.

I'll try a differing approach, since you are arguing apples, while I'm arguing oranges.

1. If God opens the door for all, He can reveal Himself to all. But He doesn't, since not all are drawn to Him.

2. If He sent His son to die for all sinners, and everyone is a sinner, then just cause everyone to become inexorably drawn to Him. Again, once you are inexorably drawn to Him, you will follow. By definition, it is impossible not to...

3. God revealed Himself to Saul. This means God can reveal Himself to all.

4. What would make each individual think, is if God revealed Himself to all, like He did to Saul.

Conclusion: If God causes one to become inexorably drawn to Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to follow. And like you agreed, He apparently does this for some.

[kjw47]

God opened the door to all, he sent his son to die on their behalf so they might not ever have to taste death even though they are sinners.

Good. Now that's taken care of we can just live our lives and pop through that open door after we die.

My teachers say, those that die at Armageddon will be judged during the tribulation( separating of the sheep and goats) and not get resurrected. It looks like that is not that far off. These are the end of these last days. Gods people will be brought through on earth-Prov 2:21-22, Matt 24:22-- One must obey now.

[kjw47]

God opened the door to all, he sent his son to die on their behalf so they might not ever have to taste death even though they are sinners.
Sauls heart was for God, dont forget Israel was Gods chosen, What he was doing against the christians was for his love of God or so he thought. Obviously God saw that his heart was worth helping. God and Jesus loved Israel, it was they who rejected both. What a great example to set for Israelites to see that Jesus' #1 opposer changed and then supported Jesus. It must have made them think.

I'll try a differing approach, since you are arguing apples, while I'm arguing oranges.

1. If God opens the door for all, He can reveal Himself to all. But He doesn't, since not all are drawn to Him.

2. If He sent His son to die for all sinners, and everyone is a sinner, then just cause everyone to become inexorably drawn to Him. Again, once you are inexorably drawn to Him, you will follow. By definition, it is impossible not to...

3. God revealed Himself to Saul. This means God can reveal Himself to all.

4. What would make each individual think, is if God revealed Himself to all, like He did to Saul.

Conclusion: If God causes one to become inexorably drawn to Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to follow. And like you agreed, He apparently does this for some.

God reads hearts. Gods view of wicked is much different than mans view. Example-In Noahs day-the 99.9% who God wiped off his earth, loved their families and friends, The Love Jesus spoke of means one has to give that love to their enemies as well. Pride gets in the way for most.
Arguing apples and oranges is called debating.

[POI]

God opened the door to all, he sent his son to die on their behalf so they might not ever have to taste death even though they are sinners.
Sauls heart was for God, dont forget Israel was Gods chosen, What he was doing against the christians was for his love of God or so he thought. Obviously God saw that his heart was worth helping. God and Jesus loved Israel, it was they who rejected both. What a great example to set for Israelites to see that Jesus' #1 opposer changed and then supported Jesus. It must have made them think.

I'll try a differing approach, since you are arguing apples, while I'm arguing oranges.

1. If God opens the door for all, He can reveal Himself to all. But He doesn't, since not all are drawn to Him.

2. If He sent His son to die for all sinners, and everyone is a sinner, then just cause everyone to become inexorably drawn to Him. Again, once you are inexorably drawn to Him, you will follow. By definition, it is impossible not to...

3. God revealed Himself to Saul. This means God can reveal Himself to all.

4. What would make each individual think, is if God revealed Himself to all, like He did to Saul.

Conclusion: If God causes one to become inexorably drawn to Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to follow. And like you agreed, He apparently does this for some.

God reads hearts. Gods view of wicked is much different than mans view. Example-In Noahs day-the 99.9% who God wiped off his earth, loved their families and friends, The Love Jesus spoke of means one has to give that love to their enemies as well. Pride gets in the way for most.
Arguing apples and oranges is called debating.

Apparently, God not only reads hearts, but changes them too. Your answer is insufficient. Please try again. I will repeat my previous post, and trust you answer it, as it is actually written:

1. If God opens the door for all, He can reveal Himself to all. But He doesn't, since not all are inexorably drawn to Him.

2. If He sent His son to die for all sinners, and everyone is a sinner, then just cause everyone to become inexorably drawn to Him. Again, once you are inexorably drawn to Him, you will follow. By definition, it is impossible not to...

3. God revealed Himself to Saul. This means God can reveal Himself to all.

4. What would make each individual think, is if God revealed Himself to all, like He did to Saul.

Conclusion: If God causes one to become inexorably drawn to Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to follow. And like you agreed, He apparently does this for some.

[kjw47]

God opened the door to all, he sent his son to die on their behalf so they might not ever have to taste death even though they are sinners.
Sauls heart was for God, dont forget Israel was Gods chosen, What he was doing against the christians was for his love of God or so he thought. Obviously God saw that his heart was worth helping. God and Jesus loved Israel, it was they who rejected both. What a great example to set for Israelites to see that Jesus' #1 opposer changed and then supported Jesus. It must have made them think.

I'll try a differing approach, since you are arguing apples, while I'm arguing oranges.

1. If God opens the door for all, He can reveal Himself to all. But He doesn't, since not all are drawn to Him.

2. If He sent His son to die for all sinners, and everyone is a sinner, then just cause everyone to become inexorably drawn to Him. Again, once you are inexorably drawn to Him, you will follow. By definition, it is impossible not to...

3. God revealed Himself to Saul. This means God can reveal Himself to all.

4. What would make each individual think, is if God revealed Himself to all, like He did to Saul.

Conclusion: If God causes one to become inexorably drawn to Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to follow. And like you agreed, He apparently does this for some.

God reads hearts. Gods view of wicked is much different than mans view. Example-In Noahs day-the 99.9% who God wiped off his earth, loved their families and friends, The Love Jesus spoke of means one has to give that love to their enemies as well. Pride gets in the way for most.
Arguing apples and oranges is called debating.

Apparently, God not only reads hearts, but changes them too. Your answer is insufficient. Please try again. I will repeat my previous post, and trust you answer it, as it is actually written:

1. If God opens the door for all, He can reveal Himself to all. But He doesn't, since not all are inexorably drawn to Him.

2. If He sent His son to die for all sinners, and everyone is a sinner, then just cause everyone to become inexorably drawn to Him. Again, once you are inexorably drawn to Him, you will follow. By definition, it is impossible not to...

3. God revealed Himself to Saul. This means God can reveal Himself to all.

4. What would make each individual think, is if God revealed Himself to all, like He did to Saul.

Conclusion: If God causes one to become inexorably drawn to Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to follow. And like you agreed, He apparently does this for some.

God gave us his written word, Few bother to learn it. The teachings of Jesus show who is who, that is how to find God. Many claim tofollow him but few know know what he taught-- i started a thread the real Jesus, under theology.

[POI]

God opened the door to all, he sent his son to die on their behalf so they might not ever have to taste death even though they are sinners.
Sauls heart was for God, dont forget Israel was Gods chosen, What he was doing against the christians was for his love of God or so he thought. Obviously God saw that his heart was worth helping. God and Jesus loved Israel, it was they who rejected both. What a great example to set for Israelites to see that Jesus' #1 opposer changed and then supported Jesus. It must have made them think.

I'll try a differing approach, since you are arguing apples, while I'm arguing oranges.

1. If God opens the door for all, He can reveal Himself to all. But He doesn't, since not all are drawn to Him.

2. If He sent His son to die for all sinners, and everyone is a sinner, then just cause everyone to become inexorably drawn to Him. Again, once you are inexorably drawn to Him, you will follow. By definition, it is impossible not to...

3. God revealed Himself to Saul. This means God can reveal Himself to all.

4. What would make each individual think, is if God revealed Himself to all, like He did to Saul.

Conclusion: If God causes one to become inexorably drawn to Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to follow. And like you agreed, He apparently does this for some.

God reads hearts. Gods view of wicked is much different than mans view. Example-In Noahs day-the 99.9% who God wiped off his earth, loved their families and friends, The Love Jesus spoke of means one has to give that love to their enemies as well. Pride gets in the way for most.
Arguing apples and oranges is called debating.

Apparently, God not only reads hearts, but changes them too. Your answer is insufficient. Please try again. I will repeat my previous post, and trust you answer it, as it is actually written:

1. If God opens the door for all, He can reveal Himself to all. But He doesn't, since not all are inexorably drawn to Him.

2. If He sent His son to die for all sinners, and everyone is a sinner, then just cause everyone to become inexorably drawn to Him. Again, once you are inexorably drawn to Him, you will follow. By definition, it is impossible not to...

3. God revealed Himself to Saul. This means God can reveal Himself to all.

4. What would make each individual think, is if God revealed Himself to all, like He did to Saul.

Conclusion: If God causes one to become inexorably drawn to Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to follow. And like you agreed, He apparently does this for some.

God gave us his written word, Few bother to learn it. The teachings of Jesus show who is who, that is how to find God. Many claim tofollow him but few know know what he taught-- i started a thread the real Jesus, under theology.

I have to now ask... Are you just not reading/understanding what I am saying, or, are you deliberately avoiding what I am saying??? I think/hope it's the later.

God changes hearts, as told from the Bible. God causes some to become inexorably drawn to him, as you also agreed many posts ago. Which means, it is impossible not to follow, if God chooses you. Nothing you have written here addresses these points, for which you already agreed upon.

So why doesn't God just CHOOSE everyone? He does for some, which intervenes upon their will.

For someone who claims to have THE understanding of the Bible, you sure seem to have difficulties following along here.

[TRANSPONDER]

God opened the door to all, he sent his son to die on their behalf so they might not ever have to taste death even though they are sinners.
Sauls heart was for God, dont forget Israel was Gods chosen, What he was doing against the christians was for his love of God or so he thought. Obviously God saw that his heart was worth helping. God and Jesus loved Israel, it was they who rejected both. What a great example to set for Israelites to see that Jesus' #1 opposer changed and then supported Jesus. It must have made them think.

I'll try a differing approach, since you are arguing apples, while I'm arguing oranges.

1. If God opens the door for all, He can reveal Himself to all. But He doesn't, since not all are drawn to Him.

2. If He sent His son to die for all sinners, and everyone is a sinner, then just cause everyone to become inexorably drawn to Him. Again, once you are inexorably drawn to Him, you will follow. By definition, it is impossible not to...

3. God revealed Himself to Saul. This means God can reveal Himself to all.

4. What would make each individual think, is if God revealed Himself to all, like He did to Saul.

Conclusion: If God causes one to become inexorably drawn to Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to follow. And like you agreed, He apparently does this for some.

God reads hearts. Gods view of wicked is much different than mans view. Example-In Noahs day-the 99.9% who God wiped off his earth, loved their families and friends, The Love Jesus spoke of means one has to give that love to their enemies as well. Pride gets in the way for most.
Arguing apples and oranges is called debating.

Apparently, God not only reads hearts, but changes them too. Your answer is insufficient. Please try again. I will repeat my previous post, and trust you answer it, as it is actually written:

1. If God opens the door for all, He can reveal Himself to all. But He doesn't, since not all are inexorably drawn to Him.

2. If He sent His son to die for all sinners, and everyone is a sinner, then just cause everyone to become inexorably drawn to Him. Again, once you are inexorably drawn to Him, you will follow. By definition, it is impossible not to...

3. God revealed Himself to Saul. This means God can reveal Himself to all.

4. What would make each individual think, is if God revealed Himself to all, like He did to Saul.

Conclusion: If God causes one to become inexorably drawn to Him, it is IMPOSSIBLE not to follow. And like you agreed, He apparently does this for some.

God gave us his written word, Few bother to learn it. The teachings of Jesus show who is who, that is how to find God. Many claim tofollow him but few know know what he taught-- i started a thread the real Jesus, under theology.

I have to now ask... Are you just not reading/understanding what I am saying, or, are you deliberately avoiding what I am saying??? I think/hope it's the later.

God changes hearts, as told from the Bible. God causes some to become inexorably drawn to him, as you also agreed many posts ago. Which means, it is impossible not to follow, if God chooses you. Nothing you have written here addresses these points, for which you already agreed upon.

So why doesn't God just CHOOSE everyone? He does for some, which intervenes upon their will.

For someone who claims to have THE understanding of the Bible, you sure seem to have difficulties following along here.

I for one see appeal to the Bible, the (supposed) teachings of Jesus, let alone the Real ones which only those vouchsafed the Truth understand as the chase that is cut to here - Faith claims and nothing more. I'd say Game Over.