Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

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Tcg
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Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

The following verses are often presented by some Christians as evidence that everyone knows God exists:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
There are however many Christian theists who rely on and present in debate one or more of the many so-called Arguments for the Existence of God.

Would these arguments be needed if Paul is right in his claim from Romans 1?


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Re: Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #51

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:36 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:31 pm ... the universe, world and life shew forth the glory of materialist science and not (on any evidence yet presented) of a god
...
There is no evidence that life could come out of nothing not from dead material by chance, so why do you believe it?
There is at least a hypothetical explanation of how life could come from Biochemicals (which are plentiful throughout the universe) , though a billion years of natural bio -experimentation, so to speak, and hard (fossil) evidence that it started from cell - groups and not done the way it says in Genesis. You have nothing but God doing magic. And what 'evidence' do you have for that other than an old book with a creation -myth proven wrong by the evidence?

cue science - denial.

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Re: Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #52

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:00 am There is at least a hypothetical explanation of how life could come from Biochemicals (which are plentiful throughout the universe) , though a billion years of natural bio -experimentation, so to speak, and hard (fossil) evidence that it started from cell - groups and not done the way it says in Genesis. You have nothing but God doing magic. And what 'evidence' do you have for that other than an old book with a creation -myth proven wrong by the evidence?
If there is a hypothetical explanation, why do you believe it, even though it can't be repeated for example in laboratory? And if it would be possible for humans to use dead material to form life, wouldn't it be only evidence for a creator?

What evidence do you have to prove creation wrong?

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Re: Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #53

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:11 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:00 am There is at least a hypothetical explanation of how life could come from Biochemicals (which are plentiful throughout the universe) , though a billion years of natural bio -experimentation, so to speak, and hard (fossil) evidence that it started from cell - groups and not done the way it says in Genesis. You have nothing but God doing magic. And what 'evidence' do you have for that other than an old book with a creation -myth proven wrong by the evidence?
If there is a hypothetical explanation, why do you believe it, even though it can't be repeated for example in laboratory? And if it would be possible for humans to use dead material to form life, wouldn't it be only evidence for a creator?

What evidence do you have to prove creation wrong?
You know that - science, in the sense of biology and geology.

That is, whether you argue creation as per Genesis, in which case the order of events and the whole creation - scenario is wrong, unless one gets into science -denial.

On the other hand, if one argues Creation aside from the Bible, then it is NOT the preferred hypothesis as Biology, planetary and geological formation and cosmology down to the origins of matter and a Cosmic Mind NOT being the preferred hypothesis, puts Creation out of the picture. *Spoilers* - I am obliged to warn that ID, IC, DNA codes, appeal to odds against random chance and the whirlwind in a junkyard arguments have all been trashed, wadded and dumped.

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Re: Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #54

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:31 pm ....
That is, whether you argue creation as per Genesis, in which case the order of events and the whole creation - scenario is wrong, unless one gets into science -denial....
So, you expect me to believe you without any evidence or even good reason? Why should I have blind faith to you and your unsupported claims?

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Re: Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #55

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:09 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 1:31 pm ....
That is, whether you argue creation as per Genesis, in which case the order of events and the whole creation - scenario is wrong, unless one gets into science -denial....
So, you expect me to believe you without any evidence or even good reason? Why should I have blind faith to you and your unsupported claims?
So the evidence of biology (evolution) and geology ( deep time) is no evidence and no good reason, my unsupported claims and an appeal to Blind faith? Rather, it's the other way around, that the world was made in 6 days, that the sun and stars were made later than the daylight never mind after the earth, that the veg. appeared before things in the sea is in denial of the evidence of science and your support of Genesis is the Blind Faith, the unsupported claim, with no decent evidence and no good reason to believe it.

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Re: Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #56

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:52 am So the evidence of biology (evolution) and geology ( deep time) is no evidence and no good reason, my unsupported claims and an appeal to Blind faith? Rather, it's the other way around, that the world was made in 6 days, that the sun and stars were made later than the daylight never mind after the earth, that the veg. appeared before things in the sea is in denial of the evidence of science and your support of Genesis is the Blind Faith, the unsupported claim, with no decent evidence and no good reason to believe it.
Theories that people make are only evidence for that people have imagination and ability to make theories.

We don't have any real evidence for that things could not have gone as the Bible tells. Theory made by humans is not an evidence for that things didn't go as the Bible tells.

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Re: Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #57

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:55 am We don't have any real evidence for that things could not have gone as the Bible tells. Theory made by humans is not an evidence for that things didn't go as the Bible tells.
And the Bible is not evidence of anything. It is merely a book of claims.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #58

Post by TRANSPONDER »

1213 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:55 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:52 am So the evidence of biology (evolution) and geology ( deep time) is no evidence and no good reason, my unsupported claims and an appeal to Blind faith? Rather, it's the other way around, that the world was made in 6 days, that the sun and stars were made later than the daylight never mind after the earth, that the veg. appeared before things in the sea is in denial of the evidence of science and your support of Genesis is the Blind Faith, the unsupported claim, with no decent evidence and no good reason to believe it.
Theories that people make are only evidence for that people have imagination and ability to make theories.

We don't have any real evidence for that things could not have gone as the Bible tells. Theory made by humans is not an evidence for that things didn't go as the Bible tells.
:D Good ol' science denial. you can't beat it. It comes down to that in the end. The faithful either have to admit that Genesis is wrong, or they deny science as 'imagination', 'Theory made by humans'. I need hardly say anything more to 'rest my case' as the old courtroom dramas have it but just, don't ever appeal to science for support of any of Your beliefs as science is just imagination and theories (hypotheses) made up by mere humans.

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Re: Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #59

Post by TRANSPONDER »

brunumb wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:21 am
1213 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:55 am We don't have any real evidence for that things could not have gone as the Bible tells. Theory made by humans is not an evidence for that things didn't go as the Bible tells.
And the Bible is not evidence of anything. It is merely a book of claims.
It is. It may be hard for believers to understand how odd it looks to we goddless to see the Believers waving an old book about and ......well. Ricky tells it better than I could.


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Re: Who is correct, Paul or the Philosophers?

Post #60

Post by 1213 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:41 am ...Good ol' science denial. you can't beat it...
To me science means scientific method (an empirical method of acquiring knowledge). I think it is fine, it can't show anything against the Bible. Theories that people make up on basis of scientific findings are the problem, if they can't be supported reasonably, like for example evolution theory.

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