Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[kjw47]

My teachers have the truth.

Well then, present to your teacher this riddle:

A) Does He have the power to change hearts? (yes)
B) Has He ever changed any hearts? (yes)

Then why not change ALL hearts?

The above question gets to the 'heart' of this post topic. It has to do with the problem of divine hiddenness.

Gods way= Send the true followers out by two-Luke 10) door to door Acts20:20) with the good news of Gods kingdom( Matt 24:14)--Those who respond have good hearts worth opening, those who reject it get rejected. Those who actually love God and his son, take the time and learn-EVERY-utterance and apply those utterances. The bible says the rest would rather have their ears tickled.. Like what blind guides tickle ears with--You are saved. He doesnt know--1) He cannot read anothers true heart--2) He has no idea who will endure until their end--3) Has never seen a single name written in Gods book of life-- What he is doing is judging a book by its cover and assuming. How many of those told they were saved were Paedophiles? How many clergy who told others they were saved were Paedophiles? Etc.

You just hand-waved away premise A) --> Does He have the power to change hearts? (yes)

Allow me to spell this out for you (again).

- Does God have power? yes
- "Change" means -- to make different or replace (something) with something else.
- "heart" means how you think and/or believe in something.

Okay, now that we have that straight, let's try this, yet again....

Anyone's "heart", who needs any change at all, he can change. So why not just do it for all?

Please remember what I asked, many posts back, where you answered both.

A) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him?

B) God only reveals himself to the ones who he knows will then follow?

Conclusion: Just inexorably draw all.

B. God doesnt waste his time. God can read hearts and he has seen the dealings of men for over 6000 years. Most are not very bright-Example--After God parted the red sea in front of their faces to save them from Pharoah and his armies-1 week later they made a golden calf to worship.
The wisest man who ever lived(at that point), Did all that God wanted of him, God spoke to him, but He threw one statute aside--Do not take foreign wives--yet Solomon did, even though he had hundreds of wives already, satan took full advantage and caused Solomon to fall to false god worship at his end.

[POI]

B. God doesnt waste his time.

Your response is illogical. If God causes some to be inexorably drawn to Him, this means it would be (impossible) not to be drawn to Him in exactly the way God wants. Hence, it would never be a waste of time to cause anyone to become inexorably drawn to him -- like He already apparently does for some.

God can read hearts and he has seen the dealings of men for over 6000 years. Most are not very bright-Example--After God parted the red sea in front of their faces to save them from Pharoah and his armies-1 week later they made a golden calf to worship.
The wisest man who ever lived(at that point), Did all that God wanted of him, God spoke to him, but He threw one statute aside--Do not take foreign wives--yet Solomon did, even though he had hundreds of wives already, satan took full advantage and caused Solomon to fall to false god worship at his end.

Again, if God instead caused this individual to become inexorably drawn to Him, like you agreed He sometimes does for others, then this individual would not have done what was written.

Further, if God changed his heart, like God sometimes apparently does for some, then this individual would not have done what was written.

[kjw47]

B. God doesnt waste his time.

Your response is illogical. If God causes some to be inexorably drawn to Him, this means it would be (impossible) not to be drawn to Him in exactly the way God wants. Hence, it would never be a waste of time to cause anyone to become inexorably drawn to him -- like He already apparently does for some.

God can read hearts and he has seen the dealings of men for over 6000 years. Most are not very bright-Example--After God parted the red sea in front of their faces to save them from Pharoah and his armies-1 week later they made a golden calf to worship.
The wisest man who ever lived(at that point), Did all that God wanted of him, God spoke to him, but He threw one statute aside--Do not take foreign wives--yet Solomon did, even though he had hundreds of wives already, satan took full advantage and caused Solomon to fall to false god worship at his end.

Again, if God instead caused this individual to become inexorably drawn to Him, like you agreed He sometimes does for others, then this individual would not have done what was written.

Further, if God changed his heart, like God sometimes apparently does for some, then this individual would not have done what was written.

Satan cause any to fall. 1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions. He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness. God doesnt change ones heart. The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.

[POI]

Satan cause any to fall.

This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.

1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions.

Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.

He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness.

Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.

God doesnt change ones heart.

This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."

etc etc etc..................

The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.

This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

[kjw47]

Satan cause any to fall.

This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.

1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions.

Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.

He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness.

Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.

God doesnt change ones heart.

This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."

etc etc etc..................

The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.

This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.

[JoeyKnothead]

I proved who is who in --The real Jesus) read it.
God knows whats best. He knows how not very bright most mortals are no matter what he does--Example-- After parting the red sea in front of their faces and saving them from Pharoahs army-Within 1 week on the other side made a golden calf to worship= not very bright. Its right there in the bible how God wants it to be--Door to door with the good news of Gods kingdom, those that care about Gods will already know that.

Did any of your teachers ever explain to you that just telling something doesn't mean you've told the truth?

Your preaching is just one more example of how so many theists can't separate stories from facts.

The liar lies, and the preacher preaches.

[POI]

Satan cause any to fall.

This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.

1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions.

Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.

He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness.

Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.

God doesnt change ones heart.

This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."

etc etc etc..................

The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.

This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.

Okay, now you are just being silly.

If you agree God can BOTH 1) cause some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, and also 2) change hearts; then such individuals, who He has selected, will not fail in His desired requests.

Your above answer, again is complete nonsense; unless you now wish to redact what you agreed with prior. (i.e.)

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

[William]

[Replying to POI in post #267]

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Is there evidence that it is done for some?

If so, then, that it is not done for all should be also be evident so one would have to look into that evidence.
___________
The argument usually has to do with an individual having free will.

IF:
Free Will is the ability to tell ones brain what to think
THEN:
One has a possible answer as to why it is only done for some and not all.

[POI]

[Replying to POI in post #267]

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Is there evidence that it is done for some?

If so, then, that it is not done for all should be also be evident so one would have to look into that evidence.
___________
The argument usually has to do with an individual having free will.

IF:
Free Will is the ability to tell ones brain what to think
THEN:
One has a possible answer as to why it is only done for some and not all.

The point of this thread is to get the believer to concider, 'which assumption is more reasonable, A) or B)'? Meaning....

A) God does not exist
B) God does exist, but.....

Using Occam's Razor, which deemed conclusion requires more assumption, A) or B)? If you go through my responses, you will see this reoccurring theme.... A) requires many less additional assumptions.

And to answer your response, I have made a case that God can both:

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

If God is a loving God, who seeks relationships with all, why is he not causing all to receive both 1) and 2)? Maybe because he is not there? And the ones who are drawn, are merely drawn based upon their own pretenses (i.e.) indoctrination, geography, heredity, etc....

So, if this IS the case, as the Bible suggests, I see 'free will' as an irrelevant discussion here. But if you wish to open a thread on the topic of 'free will", I will be happy to participate. Hint hint, I'm not sure whether or not we truly have free will?

[William]

[Replying to POI in post #269]

If my comment helps, fine and if not, I am okay with that as well.

I myself see no relevance to the debate challenge "Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?" it is focused upon a creator and it has not yet been established that we even exist within a creation...so The Razor need be applied to answering that question first.

Cut to that chase first...