Attention "Creationists"

[POI]

In the never-ending/perpetual 'god debate', Christians will often quote the following from Romans 1:20 (i.e.):

"20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Meaning, we atheists know 'god' exists because of the observed 'creation' all around us. We instead choose to suppress such obvious 'observation', for this or that reason. Well, I'm here to challenge this assertion from the Bible.

Many Christians need to really think about what 'creation' actually means? Meaning, I can 'create' stuff. Running water can 'create' stuff. Erosion can 'create' stuff. Pressure and time can 'create' stuff. Etc....

If I 'create' something, in reality, I'm instead repurposing or rearranging material. But it is still intentional. A 'mind' purposed it's reconfiguration.

If nature 'creates' something, like the Grand Canyon, Mount Everest, Yosemite, it was likely not reconfigured from a 'mind'. It's not intentional.

For debate:

1. Can you Christians distinguish the difference between both intentional and unintentional "creation" -- (in every case)?

Example 1: A straight row of almond trees was designed by a 'mindful' tree farmer. A random array of almond trees, in the middle of an uninhabited area, was likely not placed there 'mindfully' or intentionally.

Example 2: 99.9999% of the 'universe', in which we know about, is unihabitable for humans -- god's favorite 'creation'.

Example 3: The majority of the earth itself is also unihabitable for humans -- god's favorite 'creation'.

Example 4: An intentional mind 'created' humans, where an airway and a food pathway share the same plumbing, where a sewage system and sex organs share the same pathway, and also where a urine pathway routes directly through the prostate?

2. If you can distinguish the difference between intentional and unintentional "creation", is the author of Romans 1:20 still correct? If yes, why yes?

3. If 'science' is correct, and matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but instead only repurposed; this means there exists no reason to invent or assert a god in charge of 'creation', right?

[Miles]

...
But humans do have a reason to invent god. The fiction lets them sleep at night, having convinced themselves that after they die they'll be well taken care of.

Funny thing about that is that many atheists claim that a god just makes more anxiety and life is better and easier without any god.

Boy, I know quite a few atheists and have never heard such a claim. Got an example with a link?

That is why, sorry, I don't believe people would invent a god to sleep well.

Whether you believe it's fiction or not it's one of ten reasons given for believing.

10 Reasons To Believe In God And Life After Death

#10 PRACTICAL EFFECTS.
Belief in life after death is a source of personal
security, optimism, and spiritual betterment (1 John 3:2).
Nothing offers more courage than the confidence that there is
a better life for those who use the present to prepare for
eternity. Belief in the unlimited opportunities of eternity has
enabled many to make the ultimate sacrifice of their own life
in behalf of those they love. It was His belief in life after death
that enabled Jesus to say, “For what profit is it to a man if he
gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?” (Matthew
16:26). It is the same truth that prompted Christian martyr Jim
Elliot, who was killed in 1956 by the Auca Indians, to say,
“He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what
he cannot lose.”
source

And lacking any rational evidence for god, it's reasonable people would concocted one so as to pacify their angst about death.



.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
But humans do have a reason to invent god. The fiction lets them sleep at night, having convinced themselves that after they die they'll be well taken care of.

Funny thing about that is that many atheists claim that a god just makes more anxiety and life is better and easier without any god.

Boy, I know quite a few atheists and have never heard such a claim. Got an example with a link?

That is why, sorry, I don't believe people would invent a god to sleep well.

Whether you believe it's fiction or not it's one of ten reasons given for believing.

10 Reasons To Believe In God And Life After Death

#10 PRACTICAL EFFECTS.
Belief in life after death is a source of personal
security, optimism, and spiritual betterment (1 John 3:2).
Nothing offers more courage than the confidence that there is
a better life for those who use the present to prepare for
eternity. Belief in the unlimited opportunities of eternity has
enabled many to make the ultimate sacrifice of their own life
in behalf of those they love. It was His belief in life after death
that enabled Jesus to say, “For what profit is it to a man if he
gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?” (Matthew
16:26). It is the same truth that prompted Christian martyr Jim
Elliot, who was killed in 1956 by the Auca Indians, to say,
“He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what
he cannot lose.”
source

And lacking any rational evidence for god, it's reasonable people would concocted one so as to pacify their angst about death.



.

It's actually a rather a curious question. I have myself at times said that I am rather glad that I don't have to apologise in apologetics for a god - claim that makes no sense. I also don't miss hellthreat one little bit. That doesn't provide an argument such as our pal proffers that this is so worrisome that people would not ever invent a god. I can see many reasons why a god would be invented; explaining the unexplainable would be one thing, providing a bolster for Authority would be another.

There might be unsettling Questions and Doubts in due time, but that would surely be an acceptable trade off. Not to mention a handy enemy (backsliders and dissenters) to rally support against - always a handy authority - ploy.

So I don't think that 1213's argument (more or less based on some things that atheist have said) that (as I understand it) that the idea of a god is so worrying that it could not possibly have been invented but must be real is going to earn many air miles, if indeed it would get past check in.

[1213]

...Whether you believe it's fiction or not it's one of ten reasons given for believing.

10 Reasons To Believe In God And Life After Death

#10 PRACTICAL EFFECTS.
Belief in life after death is a source of personal
security, optimism, and spiritual betterment (1 John 3:2).
Nothing offers more courage than the confidence that there is
a better life for those who use the present to prepare for
eternity. Belief in the unlimited opportunities of eternity has
enabled many to make the ultimate sacrifice of their own life
in behalf of those they love. It was His belief in life after death
that enabled Jesus to say, “For what profit is it to a man if he
gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?” (Matthew
16:26). It is the same truth that prompted Christian martyr Jim
Elliot, who was killed in 1956 by the Auca Indians, to say,
“He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what
he cannot lose.”
source

And lacking any rational evidence for god, it's reasonable people would concocted one so as to pacify their angst about death....

That is interesting, because according to the Bible, eternal life is for righteous, and:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

But, belief in afterlife is not necessary the same as belief in God. I can accept that people easily "invent" afterlife, because it is basically just a thought that life continues.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Whether you believe it's fiction or not it's one of ten reasons given for believing.

10 Reasons To Believe In God And Life After Death

#10 PRACTICAL EFFECTS.
Belief in life after death is a source of personal
security, optimism, and spiritual betterment (1 John 3:2).
Nothing offers more courage than the confidence that there is
a better life for those who use the present to prepare for
eternity. Belief in the unlimited opportunities of eternity has
enabled many to make the ultimate sacrifice of their own life
in behalf of those they love. It was His belief in life after death
that enabled Jesus to say, “For what profit is it to a man if he
gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?” (Matthew
16:26). It is the same truth that prompted Christian martyr Jim
Elliot, who was killed in 1956 by the Auca Indians, to say,
“He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep, to gain what
he cannot lose.”
source

And lacking any rational evidence for god, it's reasonable people would concocted one so as to pacify their angst about death....

That is interesting, because according to the Bible, eternal life is for righteous, and:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

But, belief in afterlife is not necessary the same as belief in God. I can accept that people easily "invent" afterlife, because it is basically just a thought that life continues.

Quite true, but irrelevant. Belief in an afterlife has always (so far as I've ever seen) involved gods and that carries with it a cozy sense of security - so long as one dismisses out of hand the possibility that one of the other religions and its' optional extra afterlife -package might be the one that delivers, and he one you signed up for just takes your money and tell you to call the complaints department if you don't get a life after you die.

Nobody has ever come back to complain, so it must be fine, yes? But you are right that, once man made religions are discarded, a..."Natural' afterlife is still a consideration. Would you like one of our glossy leaflets on "The Atheist Afterlife"? No? It's free. No not the leaflet, the afterlife. No rites, prayers or money in the tin, and the beer is free in the next world and the stage shows are very good."

[POI]

That is interesting, because according to the Bible, eternal life is for righteous, and:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

But, belief in afterlife is not necessary the same as belief in God. I can accept that people easily "invent" afterlife, because it is basically just a thought that life continues.

Were you planning on responding to the other portion of post #4? You, know the part which deals with 'creationism". Seems you skipped right over it.

[1213]

....Belief in an afterlife has always (so far as I've ever seen) involved gods and that carries with it a cozy sense of security ...

If someone invents afterlife for to feel better, why would he make things complicated by inventing also a god?

[POI]

why would he make things complicated by inventing also a god?

The short answer.... Humans like simple answers. "God did it" makes it easy, and puts our minds at ease. It answers the tough questions, or the questions which don't make sense. I'd say the invention of a 'god' makes life more simple, not more complicated. Well, not until us pesky atheists start to probe a bit. Then it gets quite complicated, for you

Care to answer the remaining parts of post #4 now?

[brunumb]

....Belief in an afterlife has always (so far as I've ever seen) involved gods and that carries with it a cozy sense of security ...

If someone invents afterlife for to feel better, why would he make things complicated by inventing also a god?

The two may have easily arisen independently. Gods were invented to explain the vagaries of nature, hence the thousands governing all sorts of things from thunder to crop health. Spirits and the afterlife may have helped to explain why dead people were seen and communicated with in dreams or hallucinations. The concept of an afterlife with a god is a natural consequence of religious evolution.

[JoeyKnothead]

If someone invents afterlife for to feel better, why would he make things complicated by inventing also a god?

A: There's an afterlife.

B: How so?

A: Cause God.

We see this scenario play out often down here in the Bible Belt.

[TRANSPONDER]

....Belief in an afterlife has always (so far as I've ever seen) involved gods and that carries with it a cozy sense of security ...

If someone invents afterlife for to feel better, why would he make things complicated by inventing also a god?

Yep, as above. I am in no position to go back and question Neanderthals and the like about their God - beliefs if any. We do know that they were much concerned with death, ancestors, and apparently an afterlife. It appears that at first there was no One God, but various malevolent spirits that Did Stuff and had to be appeased with sacrifices. Then it Seems that with the importance of farming we got a fertility religion and a mother goddess, and with the rise of warring states and bronze swords, a supposed tribe of gods, generally resembling the people who invented them. Finally, we got people pushing (not just in the Bible) for one King - god, and all the others subservient and in the end, false.

That is my hypothesis - the desire for an afterlife came first and we gradually made, and remade as convenient, gods in our own (changing) image.