Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

[POI]

For many atheists, the go-to topic for debate, is "divine hiddenness". I do not see it spoke about much here? I figured it would be worthy of discussion. Below is a theist's response/rebuttal to the argument:



For Debate:

1. In claim #1, the theist states Abraham, Joseph, and Jesus have their requests ultimately fulfilled at a later date. Why do countless victims of rape, torture, AND murder go unfulfilled in their requests to be saved?

2. In claim #2, the theist states hiddenness does seem to promote a relationship in the long run. This is clearly not the case, as many will die as atheists -- (likely me, unless He is going to reveal Himself to me later in a way for which I will not doubt His mere existence).

3. In claim #3, God remains hidden from the ones who would rebel. I guess this means if I never feel I received His presence, then that means I would have rebelled anyways? Well then, should I ignore the Bible, where He presented Himself to many who reject Him then?

I'll stop here... The theist mentions other stuff, but nothing seemingly worthy of intellectual discussion.

I hope you theists can come up with BETTER reasons than the ones given in the video?

Or, in conclusion, apply Occam's Razor for the following question: Why doesn't God intervene, when prayed upon, where ultimate finite tragedy strikes?

A): Because God does not exist... One assumption

OR

B): God does exist, but.... Commence additional assumptions

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A) needs only one assumption, B) needs more....

[brunumb]

And I think God has done things for people to have better life, for example the rules in the Bible. And I think those teachings are a good way to prevent evil. Bad way would be to not let people to have freedom.

Those teachings are worth nothing if people can use their free will to do whatever they want. God has just tossed out a few guidelines and then simply washed his hands of the matter. He wasn't so cavalier when he got stuck into Adam and Eve for their transgression and decided to inflict his vengeance on everyone else even though they didn't even exist at the time.

[POI]

....Both you and I would prevent or stop someone, for which was going to,...

Yes, and God has done that by giving the teachings that are in the Bible that are against rape and murder.

Okay, do you really not get it, or, are you playing games?

This would be exactly like if someone asked if you stopped person X from raping and murdering that person, and you tell them, "well, the law is already in place, that it is illegal." Meaning, you had knowledge of the rape/murder beforehand, and did nothing about it. This is what God is doing, every day.

Of the two, what's more logical to conclude?:

A: The Christian god does not exist?
B: The Christian God does exist, and he hardly ever stops rape/murder -- (even though He sees it all going on)?

[TRANSPONDER]

....Freedom is just an excuse for Bible God -apologists to shove the blame onto man. Now I seem to recall that you don't subscribe to divine punishment which makes things easier for you but moves your mindset nearer to the humanist line - we are on our own. But the fact is that in the Bible, God overrode free will when it suited him, and intervened quite heavily when it was convenient (1), therefore I say that free will is an excuse and evasion for explaining why God doesn't DO something about this mess. ...

I think free will means people can freely want what ever they want. It does not mean that things will always go as they want. And I was speaking about that God gave people freedom, in meaning that we can choose for example to reject Him. But, we are not omnipotent and even if people would want, God does not allow evil to continue forever.

I don't think God has overrode free will. Intervening to something is not same as ending persons ability to freely want what ever the person wants.

And I think God has done things for people to have better life, for example the rules in the Bible. And I think those teachings are a good way to prevent evil. Bad way would be to not let people to have freedom.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the problem of evil, which is that a god if it had anything resembling a moral code and the ability to do something about it as the Bible says clearly that he once did, it ought to do something about this evil. You appeal to free will was already shown invalid, and preaching about the choice to believe or not is utterly irrelevant to the current discussion.

What is relevant, but is a truly feeble attempt at an excuse, is that everyone is going to die, as if that put anything right.

There are apologetics, but apart from not doing the work of God apologists for them, in the end, they don't make a convincing case (for anyone not already convinced, of course) and that's a Case - the Believer may proffer the stock excuses or evasions (hardly arguments) but will those convince the doubters? I think rather that they will show the doubter and questioner that the believer has no case. They will consider, that it strains credulity less to suppose that, if there is a god...it doesn't intervene.

So they go Deist. What changes? Organised religion goes, the Bible goes, sin - death and hellthreat goes. Creation (but not Genesis) remains, but we may disagree on that, usually vehemently because a Sortagod is the only thing that stops them going Atheist

[Clownboat]

...Here is your evidence:
Catholic Priests Abused 1,000 Children in Pennsylvania - 2018 - (Yup, Pennsylvania alone!)...

I asked evidence that it is happening now. I can't prevent something that happened 4 years ago, because I will not have a time machine.

You don't need a time machine, unless you claim that all the raping going on in the Catholic church has stopped. Do you claim all child rape in the Catholic church as stopped?
That would be an odd claim now that you know that in Pennsylvania alone there have been over 1,000 cases of priests abusing children.

[POI]

Dear Christians,

- Do you believe in the Christian God? (yes or no)
- Can your God manifest in our reality, if He wants to? (yes or no)
- Does your God want a relationship with His creation? (yes or no)
- Does your God want you to know He even exists? (yes or no)
- Does your God know what would convince anyone/everyone that He exists? (yes or no)
- Is your God capable of doing such convincing? (yes or no)
- Is your God reported to intervene with His creation? (yes or no)

1. Why isn't everyone certain that the Christian God exists? Or, are we all certain and some are just suppressing or lying - (Romans 1)?
2. Knowing that the Christian God exists still allows for one's "free will", to follow or reject Him, right?

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This is why I continue to feel the "problem of divine hiddenness" presents one of the, if not THE, largest problem for theists to try and defend. Again, I have provided a video, where a Christian gives (3) counter arguments ---> (presented in the OP). Are any of his (3) arguments satisfactory? If so, please clarify? Or, are there better ones to be made? If so, what are they? Christians seem quite disinterested with this thread, and I can only wonder why?

I'd wager that this topic is at the 'heart', as to why many are atheists.

[1213]

...Do you claim all child rape in the Catholic church as stopped?
That would be an odd claim now that you know that in Pennsylvania alone there have been over 1,000 cases of priests abusing children.

If there has been 1000 cases, is that enough reason to say it is still going and people are raped there? I would need evidence for such accusation. And if you know it is true, what do you think should be done to it?

[1213]

...
This would be exactly like if someone asked if you stopped person X from raping and murdering that person, and you tell them, "well, the law is already in place, that it is illegal." Meaning, you had knowledge of the rape/murder beforehand, and did nothing about it.

Why do you think giving law and rules how to live well is nothing? What more God should have done, prevent evil people never to exist, and not allow freedom? I think it would be evil to not give freedom to people in this simulation.

[1213]

...We want to know why God, who knows what is going to happen, does not do anything to prevent murder and rape ...

He has said for example "don't murder". He has said, love others, which means, don't do anything evil to others. That is why I think it is wrong to say He has not done anything. But, maybe it is not enough for you. Would you like that God destroys all evil people, if they don't want to stop doing evil?

[1213]

God has given freedom to people. That is why it is possible that people do evil things. And I think it is good that God gave freedom. But I don't see any good reason to claim evil continues forever. That is why I think it can't be said God allows evil to continue.

Evil has occurred in the past and continues to occur in the present. It is reasonable to therefore conclude that God allows it to continue. The only things we don't know are why and for how much longer he will allow it.

Evil people have occurred, all of them have died or will die. That is why I think it is not reasonable to say that God allows evil to continue.

That does not make sense. Evil people continue to exist and are doing evil. God allows it. Why?

Doesn't every evil person die?

I think it is interesting question, what should be done to evil people. For example it seems most people oppose death penalty for murder and adultery (which rape in many cases would be). Would it be good, if we would judge as Bible suggests? It would decrease many crimes + we would spare the money used for prisons.

[POI]

...
This would be exactly like if someone asked if you stopped person X from raping and murdering that person, and you tell them, "well, the law is already in place, that it is illegal." Meaning, you had knowledge of the rape/murder beforehand, and did nothing about it.

Why do you think giving law and rules how to live well is nothing? What more God should have done, prevent evil people never to exist, and not allow freedom? I think it would be evil to not give freedom to people in this simulation.

I think you missed my point(s), entirely...

- God sees and has the ability to intervene in all.
- You don't.
- You stated, prior, that if your were privy to a rape/murder in progress, you would stop it.
- God does not.

Does this make you more 'moral' than the God, for which you are trying to defend? I'd say, logically, yes.

Another point, in a prior post, you stated that God gave the law. Okay? But God also witnesses all rape/murder, and does nothing about it. This would be no different then you seeing a rape/murder in progress, and then saying, "the law states rape and murder are bad, so he should have known better." You would be deemed negligent. So why is God not deemed negligent??? Well, this is where you throw your hands up in the air, and cry "free will'. So I guess this means God never intervenes at all? Or does He? Either answer you give here, just opens up a can of worms, for which makes you continue to look like a fool. -- (BTW, I'm not saying you're a fool. I'm saying you have to make yourself present foolish arguments to protect such a claimed God). The most logical assumption, is that such a God does not even exist.

To assume He does, presents additional assumption(s), which makes you look absurd and/or illogical --- >if you also wish to suggest that this God does sometimes intervene, and has love for His creation. If He is instead some benign god, or a god who never intervenes, then we can certainly approach that can of worms.

Okay, now that we have this straight, care to tackle post #105?