Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

Plain english sir--Those that have their faculties are D.

In plain English, what you are saying, is there exists no standard for salvation. It's situational, case by case. Hence, the answer is not D).

Those that do not, God will take into consideration and in his kingdom when made whole they will get the opportunity to learn and apply Gods will out of Love inside of themselves. But will be tested when satan is loosed for a little while.

Even if your above answer was acceptable, many may still never possess such 'facilities'. Stringing them along, longer, would make no difference.

God gave all with faculties this choice now=Deuteronomy 30:19--He set before all LIFE or DEATH both will be everlasting. 5% by words 95% by actions.

???

****************

May I remind you, I'm asking from the perspective of an earnest believer. I trust you understand that we have many many many denominations. Many of which, directly conflict with one another, in regards to THE WAY to achieving salvation. After many exchanges, your best effort is, 'well', it's D) IF...."

However, it appears you are inventing your own answer. The Bible does not look to give such caveat(s), for which you have expressed. And even if you believe you can find a verse or two, which you feel does give such a specific caveat, I TOO, can pluck or cherry pick some verse(s) to prove you wrong.

As I told "Tam", "God is clear and direct when He wants to be about many topics --- whether it be about His stance on homosexuality, theft, trespassing, murder, men > women, etc etc etc...." Meaning, the answer would be unanimous and would be coming from many Christians, and maybe even non-Christians, who observe this topic. But instead, most avoid answering at all, or the answers are not unified. And even IF two answers seem similar, these two individuals will use differing passages, as THE passages, to express the answer.

Moving forward, I'd have to say you can justify answers A) and/or B) and/or C). Meaning:

A) Some must get a free pass, especially if their facilities are missing. <- unconditional grace
B) Some may have enough 'facilities' to achieve belief/faith, but not the works portion.
C) Others will be judged, full tilt, by evaluating their entire 'character', as they had all 'facilities'

But I doubt you will be satisfactory, in finding Chapter and Verse in the Bible, which backs up your claim of, "well, it depends." Or, "God will take into consideration..."

It would be like trying to get into the new night club, and there is a bouncer at the front door. You ask the bouncer, "How do I gain entrance? Or, "May I enter?" And he states, it depends....

EVEN IF I possess all my 'facilities', and think the answer is D), the unanswered question still remains... How much of B) and how much of C)? Since you want to give percentages above, what is the percentage/rubric/standard of this <B) and C)> formula?.?.?.?.?

How much 'faith/belief' is enough?
How many works are enough?
Must your faith/belief NEVER waiver in the slightest?
Must you be performing works X amount of time, or X amount of hours per day?
Are there some works worth more, or are considered 'better' than others?
etc etc etc etc etc...................................................

One could go insane trying to figure out if they have pleased god enough, all-the-while, being told that "NO ONE IS worthy and your deeds/works are filthy rags to god" anyways.... You starting to get the drift? The standard is NOT clear, not by a LONG shot

Maybe this is why I can drive down the street, and see a Baptist church set directly next door to a 7 Day Adventist church.

Even if you possess a high level of reading comprehension, you can drive yourself nutz trying to figure out who is and who is not saved.

In conclusion, the Bible is not clear.

The teachings of Jesus are clear, only 1 denomination teaches them correct. In my thread the real Jesus( Theology) one finds truth and can clearly see who is listening to Jesus.

Oh? Which one is that? The JW's?

[kjw47]

Plain english sir--Those that have their faculties are D.

In plain English, what you are saying, is there exists no standard for salvation. It's situational, case by case. Hence, the answer is not D).

Those that do not, God will take into consideration and in his kingdom when made whole they will get the opportunity to learn and apply Gods will out of Love inside of themselves. But will be tested when satan is loosed for a little while.

Even if your above answer was acceptable, many may still never possess such 'facilities'. Stringing them along, longer, would make no difference.

God gave all with faculties this choice now=Deuteronomy 30:19--He set before all LIFE or DEATH both will be everlasting. 5% by words 95% by actions.

???

****************

May I remind you, I'm asking from the perspective of an earnest believer. I trust you understand that we have many many many denominations. Many of which, directly conflict with one another, in regards to THE WAY to achieving salvation. After many exchanges, your best effort is, 'well', it's D) IF...."

However, it appears you are inventing your own answer. The Bible does not look to give such caveat(s), for which you have expressed. And even if you believe you can find a verse or two, which you feel does give such a specific caveat, I TOO, can pluck or cherry pick some verse(s) to prove you wrong.

As I told "Tam", "God is clear and direct when He wants to be about many topics --- whether it be about His stance on homosexuality, theft, trespassing, murder, men > women, etc etc etc...." Meaning, the answer would be unanimous and would be coming from many Christians, and maybe even non-Christians, who observe this topic. But instead, most avoid answering at all, or the answers are not unified. And even IF two answers seem similar, these two individuals will use differing passages, as THE passages, to express the answer.

Moving forward, I'd have to say you can justify answers A) and/or B) and/or C). Meaning:

A) Some must get a free pass, especially if their facilities are missing. <- unconditional grace
B) Some may have enough 'facilities' to achieve belief/faith, but not the works portion.
C) Others will be judged, full tilt, by evaluating their entire 'character', as they had all 'facilities'

But I doubt you will be satisfactory, in finding Chapter and Verse in the Bible, which backs up your claim of, "well, it depends." Or, "God will take into consideration..."

It would be like trying to get into the new night club, and there is a bouncer at the front door. You ask the bouncer, "How do I gain entrance? Or, "May I enter?" And he states, it depends....

EVEN IF I possess all my 'facilities', and think the answer is D), the unanswered question still remains... How much of B) and how much of C)? Since you want to give percentages above, what is the percentage/rubric/standard of this <B) and C)> formula?.?.?.?.?

How much 'faith/belief' is enough?
How many works are enough?
Must your faith/belief NEVER waiver in the slightest?
Must you be performing works X amount of time, or X amount of hours per day?
Are there some works worth more, or are considered 'better' than others?
etc etc etc etc etc...................................................

One could go insane trying to figure out if they have pleased god enough, all-the-while, being told that "NO ONE IS worthy and your deeds/works are filthy rags to god" anyways.... You starting to get the drift? The standard is NOT clear, not by a LONG shot

Maybe this is why I can drive down the street, and see a Baptist church set directly next door to a 7 Day Adventist church.

Even if you possess a high level of reading comprehension, you can drive yourself nutz trying to figure out who is and who is not saved.

In conclusion, the Bible is not clear.

The teachings of Jesus are clear, only 1 denomination teaches them correct. In my thread the real Jesus( Theology) one finds truth and can clearly see who is listening to Jesus.

Oh? Which one is that? The JW's?

The teachings of Jesus and the facts of true God worship history back the JW,s all the way.

[POI]

Plain english sir--Those that have their faculties are D.

In plain English, what you are saying, is there exists no standard for salvation. It's situational, case by case. Hence, the answer is not D).

Those that do not, God will take into consideration and in his kingdom when made whole they will get the opportunity to learn and apply Gods will out of Love inside of themselves. But will be tested when satan is loosed for a little while.

Even if your above answer was acceptable, many may still never possess such 'facilities'. Stringing them along, longer, would make no difference.

God gave all with faculties this choice now=Deuteronomy 30:19--He set before all LIFE or DEATH both will be everlasting. 5% by words 95% by actions.

???

****************

May I remind you, I'm asking from the perspective of an earnest believer. I trust you understand that we have many many many denominations. Many of which, directly conflict with one another, in regards to THE WAY to achieving salvation. After many exchanges, your best effort is, 'well', it's D) IF...."

However, it appears you are inventing your own answer. The Bible does not look to give such caveat(s), for which you have expressed. And even if you believe you can find a verse or two, which you feel does give such a specific caveat, I TOO, can pluck or cherry pick some verse(s) to prove you wrong.

As I told "Tam", "God is clear and direct when He wants to be about many topics --- whether it be about His stance on homosexuality, theft, trespassing, murder, men > women, etc etc etc...." Meaning, the answer would be unanimous and would be coming from many Christians, and maybe even non-Christians, who observe this topic. But instead, most avoid answering at all, or the answers are not unified. And even IF two answers seem similar, these two individuals will use differing passages, as THE passages, to express the answer.

Moving forward, I'd have to say you can justify answers A) and/or B) and/or C). Meaning:

A) Some must get a free pass, especially if their facilities are missing. <- unconditional grace
B) Some may have enough 'facilities' to achieve belief/faith, but not the works portion.
C) Others will be judged, full tilt, by evaluating their entire 'character', as they had all 'facilities'

But I doubt you will be satisfactory, in finding Chapter and Verse in the Bible, which backs up your claim of, "well, it depends." Or, "God will take into consideration..."

It would be like trying to get into the new night club, and there is a bouncer at the front door. You ask the bouncer, "How do I gain entrance? Or, "May I enter?" And he states, it depends....

EVEN IF I possess all my 'facilities', and think the answer is D), the unanswered question still remains... How much of B) and how much of C)? Since you want to give percentages above, what is the percentage/rubric/standard of this <B) and C)> formula?.?.?.?.?

How much 'faith/belief' is enough?
How many works are enough?
Must your faith/belief NEVER waiver in the slightest?
Must you be performing works X amount of time, or X amount of hours per day?
Are there some works worth more, or are considered 'better' than others?
etc etc etc etc etc...................................................

One could go insane trying to figure out if they have pleased god enough, all-the-while, being told that "NO ONE IS worthy and your deeds/works are filthy rags to god" anyways.... You starting to get the drift? The standard is NOT clear, not by a LONG shot

Maybe this is why I can drive down the street, and see a Baptist church set directly next door to a 7 Day Adventist church.

Even if you possess a high level of reading comprehension, you can drive yourself nutz trying to figure out who is and who is not saved.

In conclusion, the Bible is not clear.

The teachings of Jesus are clear, only 1 denomination teaches them correct. In my thread the real Jesus( Theology) one finds truth and can clearly see who is listening to Jesus.

Oh? Which one is that? The JW's?

The teachings of Jesus and the facts of true God worship history back the JW,s all the way.

Interesting.... Okay?

So were you planning on addressing post 189? Or, were you instead content with a blank/rogue assertion(s)? Because anyone can respond, like you did in post 190. And wouldn't you know it, many other denominations have given me virtually the exact same answer as you. "I have the right translation." While also giving me conflicting answers to yours.

Further, I would like to see other Christians chime in here. Is "kjw47" correct, as he says? I have a gut feeling they don't agree. But, as you stated, I guess they are just part of the 99%, aren't they?

[kjw47]

Plain english sir--Those that have their faculties are D.

In plain English, what you are saying, is there exists no standard for salvation. It's situational, case by case. Hence, the answer is not D).

Those that do not, God will take into consideration and in his kingdom when made whole they will get the opportunity to learn and apply Gods will out of Love inside of themselves. But will be tested when satan is loosed for a little while.

Even if your above answer was acceptable, many may still never possess such 'facilities'. Stringing them along, longer, would make no difference.

God gave all with faculties this choice now=Deuteronomy 30:19--He set before all LIFE or DEATH both will be everlasting. 5% by words 95% by actions.

???

****************

May I remind you, I'm asking from the perspective of an earnest believer. I trust you understand that we have many many many denominations. Many of which, directly conflict with one another, in regards to THE WAY to achieving salvation. After many exchanges, your best effort is, 'well', it's D) IF...."

However, it appears you are inventing your own answer. The Bible does not look to give such caveat(s), for which you have expressed. And even if you believe you can find a verse or two, which you feel does give such a specific caveat, I TOO, can pluck or cherry pick some verse(s) to prove you wrong.

As I told "Tam", "God is clear and direct when He wants to be about many topics --- whether it be about His stance on homosexuality, theft, trespassing, murder, men > women, etc etc etc...." Meaning, the answer would be unanimous and would be coming from many Christians, and maybe even non-Christians, who observe this topic. But instead, most avoid answering at all, or the answers are not unified. And even IF two answers seem similar, these two individuals will use differing passages, as THE passages, to express the answer.

Moving forward, I'd have to say you can justify answers A) and/or B) and/or C). Meaning:

A) Some must get a free pass, especially if their facilities are missing. <- unconditional grace
B) Some may have enough 'facilities' to achieve belief/faith, but not the works portion.
C) Others will be judged, full tilt, by evaluating their entire 'character', as they had all 'facilities'

But I doubt you will be satisfactory, in finding Chapter and Verse in the Bible, which backs up your claim of, "well, it depends." Or, "God will take into consideration..."

It would be like trying to get into the new night club, and there is a bouncer at the front door. You ask the bouncer, "How do I gain entrance? Or, "May I enter?" And he states, it depends....

EVEN IF I possess all my 'facilities', and think the answer is D), the unanswered question still remains... How much of B) and how much of C)? Since you want to give percentages above, what is the percentage/rubric/standard of this <B) and C)> formula?.?.?.?.?

How much 'faith/belief' is enough?
How many works are enough?
Must your faith/belief NEVER waiver in the slightest?
Must you be performing works X amount of time, or X amount of hours per day?
Are there some works worth more, or are considered 'better' than others?
etc etc etc etc etc...................................................

One could go insane trying to figure out if they have pleased god enough, all-the-while, being told that "NO ONE IS worthy and your deeds/works are filthy rags to god" anyways.... You starting to get the drift? The standard is NOT clear, not by a LONG shot

Maybe this is why I can drive down the street, and see a Baptist church set directly next door to a 7 Day Adventist church.

Even if you possess a high level of reading comprehension, you can drive yourself nutz trying to figure out who is and who is not saved.

In conclusion, the Bible is not clear.

The teachings of Jesus are clear, only 1 denomination teaches them correct. In my thread the real Jesus( Theology) one finds truth and can clearly see who is listening to Jesus.

Oh? Which one is that? The JW's?

The teachings of Jesus and the facts of true God worship history back the JW,s all the way.

Interesting.... Okay?

So were you planning on addressing post 189? Or, were you instead content with a blank/rogue assertion(s)? Because anyone can respond, like you did in post 190. And wouldn't you know it, many other denominations have given me virtually the exact same answer as you. "I have the right translation." While also giving me conflicting answers to yours.

Further, I would like to see other Christians chime in here. Is "kjw47" correct, as he says? I have a gut feeling they don't agree. But, as you stated, I guess they are just part of the 99%, aren't they?

You are correct, the bible isnt clear for a reason. It keeps satan and his angels in spiritual darkness so he cant screw it all up like he tried through the religion that came out of Rome, who had no clue to what was truth, thus held councils, some headed by pagan false god worshipping kings, guess who had the final say as to what was truth? Yes it kept mortals in darkness as well. But God promised in Daniel 12:4 that truth would become abundant in these last days, and at the proper time( Matt 24:45) through the teachers Jesus appointed truth has become abundant, even the hidden truths(Dan 12:4) but the religions in the darkness of untruths taught for centuries reject the truth, their reasoning is because it wasnt taught all through the centuries. I guess they missed Daniel 12:4 to see some truth was hidden and didnt come back until these last days. One must be taught by those teachers Jesus appointed or they remain in darkness and cannot possibly accomplish this-John 4:22-24--One of the false truths created at the council of Constantinople in 381 ce was that God is a trinity, it is a false teaching. It is 100% fact prior to that, the Abrahamic God served by Israel= YHWH(Jehovah) a single being God is the only true God. Thus all following the trinity are being mislead into breaking Gods #1 commandment daily= pure darkness.

[POI]

You are correct, the bible isn't clear

That's all I needed to read. Thanks.

The Bible is not clear, in regards to the path of salvation. So basically, Christians have no clue if they are saved or not.

[kjw47]

You are correct, the bible isn't clear

That's all I needed to read. Thanks.

The Bible is not clear, in regards to the path of salvation. So basically, Christians have no clue if they are saved or not.

Yes they do, those that listen to Jesus--His teachings show who he is with and has truth. I showed 8 important teachings from him in my thread-The real Jesus under Theology. Few believe him over the errors taught in 99% of the religions claiming to be christian.

[POI]

You are correct, the bible isn't clear

That's all I needed to read. Thanks.

The Bible is not clear, in regards to the path of salvation. So basically, Christians have no clue if they are saved or not.

Yes they do, those that listen to Jesus--His teachings show who he is with and has truth. I showed 8 important teachings from him in my thread-The real Jesus under Theology. Few believe him over the errors taught in 99% of the religions claiming to be christian.

You keep stepping all over yourself. You just stated the Bible is not clear. So is it clear or not? Sounds like it is as clear, as mud.

[POI]

Status update: Apparently, either Christians do not want to give an answer, or, give an answer which then presents conflict.

Salvation is achieved by?

A) unconditional grace --> all are saved
B) conditional grace --> by the topic of (faith/belief)
C) conditional grace --> by the topic of (works)
D) B & C
E) No one receives salvation, because no one is worthy

If you opt for an option F), please clarify? And please make sure it would not actually involve the categories/topics of B) and C).

*****************************

Post #11 JW states "the Bible translates itself". (My last response) - Great. Then the answer should be direct and simple, provided one is literate. Is the answer A), B), C), D), or E); and why?

Post #27. Eloi states "I have no time to answer all your questions". (My last response) - This is when I merely asked direct follow up questions to his response (i.e.):

1. Is baptism required? (yes or no)
2. By default, at birth or before natural birth, are humans deemed "righteous" or "unrighteous"? (righteous or unrighteous)
3. Must a person be free from all the said above to achieve salvation? (yes or no)

He apparently, all of a sudden, "has no time" to answer 3 (one-word-answer) questions? Which begs the question... But he has time to answer others in this thread there-after?.?.?.?

Post #49. Bjs1 alludes to 'morals' being irrelevant to salvation. My follow up question remains:

If everyone, for which He selects is undeserving of His selection, and the elected are the ones which will accept it, does this mean 'morals' are irrelevant?

Post# 151. Tam claims I'm trying to somehow 'pigeon-hole' His message about salvation, or demonstrate 'contradiction' in His messages about achieving salvation, when there is not really any.... However, through our exchange, I have happily conveyed that God is clear and direct when He wants to be about many topics --- whether it be about His stance on homosexuality, theft, trespassing, murder, men > women, etc etc etc.... If I was to ask any Christian about what His stance/position would be about many topics, the answer would be unified. However, where the Bible and the topic of salvation is concerned, NOT-SO-MUCH?

Post #161. 1213 refuses to give an answer.

Post #189. kjw47 admits it is not clear, for a reason. He also states God grades on a curve. Which would mean, that even if a clear standard was given, God would not hold everyone to that one standard anyways. But then attempts to score a 'win' for the JW's?.?.?

**********************

Starting anew.... Christians, how does one achieve salvation?

[kjw47]

You are correct, the bible isn't clear

That's all I needed to read. Thanks.

The Bible is not clear, in regards to the path of salvation. So basically, Christians have no clue if they are saved or not.

Yes they do, those that listen to Jesus--His teachings show who he is with and has truth. I showed 8 important teachings from him in my thread-The real Jesus under Theology. Few believe him over the errors taught in 99% of the religions claiming to be christian.

You keep stepping all over yourself. You just stated the Bible is not clear. So is it clear or not? Sounds like it is as clear, as mud.

Some of its clear, obviously, some of it is symbolism.

[brunumb]

Some of its clear, obviously, some of it is symbolism.

So some of it is clear and some of it is not. pretty much the same can be said of any book. Not very helpful, particularly when there are grifters around taking advantage of the bits that are allegedly unclear.