An alien with Vast Powers and Intelligence came to Earth

[Diogenes]

An alien with vast powers and intelligence came to Earth.

He gained the world’s attention by announcing that at an exact time all of the world’s religious shrines would disappear, as if evaporated, without violence or trace, leaving not even a cloud of dust or hint of residue.

He claimed not to have created the universe, but to be its oldest inhabitant, an observer who took a special interest in the Earth and its people; that he had guided the development of the world for their benefit. He offered peace, prosperity and health to all. He had but one condition, that the people of Earth would recognize him, love and worship him as their protector and benefactor.

There were some who took instant offense. He destroyed them utterly. Much of Russia and several countries in the Middle East were laid waste. Men, women, children and their possessions simply disappeared, along with half a dozen obscure and isolated tribes in Borneo, Brazil, and South East Asia.

Gardens flourished, poverty vanished, major disease and birth defects were cured. His power, wisdom, and kindness were almost universally acknowledged. He promised an eternal life of bliss after physical death.

Questions for debate:
Would you join the billions who acknowledged him as their sole lord and savior?
If not, why not?
In what ways would this alien be effectively different from the god of Abraham?

[1213]

Where does the Bible God demand to be worshiped?

"For thou shalt worship no other god; for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
Exodus 34:14

"Oh come, let us worship and bow down;
let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker!"
Psalm95:6

"the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:23-24

"I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."
Romans 12:1

I don't think those demands worshiping. First one tells, don't worship other gods. Second one is more like asking others to do something. Third on is about how to worship. Fourth is an appeal from Paul to others.

I think worshiping is something that is done freely. If it would be done as commanded, it would be just obeying orders. I have understood worshiping is basically same as giving credit for someone. In this case it would mean for example give thanks to God for what He has done. If we would give God's credit to someone else, it would be wrong. We can choose not to give credit to Him, but it can also be seen wrong, if He truly deserves the credit.

[1213]

...
It is remarkable how much it's about a jealous God - He is obsessed that nobody worship any other gods, Not Baal or the god of the Sidonians, not Asherah. The Bible is all about worshipping and serving the one god and no others, even as well as YHWH.

Now, what do you think worshiping means?

I think worshiping other gods would mean we give the credit of God's work for them. And I think it is wrong to give credit for someone who doesn't deserve that. Would you be ok, if credit of your good work would be given to someone else and you would be ignored?

[TRANSPONDER]

Where does the Bible God demand to be worshiped?

"For thou shalt worship no other god; for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."
Exodus 34:14

"Oh come, let us worship and bow down;
let us kneel before the Lord, our Maker!"
Psalm95:6

"the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:23-24

"I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship."
Romans 12:1

I don't think those demands worshiping. First one tells, don't worship other gods. Second one is more like asking others to do something. Third on is about how to worship. Fourth is an appeal from Paul to others.

I think worshiping is something that is done freely. If it would be done as commanded, it would be just obeying orders. I have understood worshiping is basically same as giving credit for someone. In this case it would mean for example give thanks to God for what He has done. If we would give God's credit to someone else, it would be wrong. We can choose not to give credit to Him, but it can also be seen wrong, if He truly deserves the credit.

Well, there's the thing. It is never 'God does not command you to worship; He would only have you do it freely of your own volition'. No, you are commanded to do it.

...
It is remarkable how much it's about a jealous God - He is obsessed that nobody worship any other gods, Not Baal or the god of the Sidonians, not Asherah. The Bible is all about worshipping and serving the one god and no others, even as well as YHWH.

Now, what do you think worshiping means?

I think worshiping other gods would mean we give the credit of God's work for them. And I think it is wrong to give credit for someone who doesn't deserve that. Would you be ok, if credit of your good work would be given to someone else and you would be ignored?

What's worse is someone who continually messes up and still expects to be praised and adored. That's why Biblegod looks more like a despot or dictator than a moral deity. Of course the problem is an old one - rote and insincere recitation of prayers, but that is considered better than not doing it. At least trooping into Church and mumbling the usual while thinking about the ball game afterwards is still showing one is on the right side, and so God will give you preference over someone out looking after the poor but isn't the right religion.

What is NOT recognised as a problem, ever, by the believers (the atheists saw it) is why God would even want that. Why would he (or even an ET with advanced technology) want people chanting prayers to him? Some Christians have seen it in debate (though they forgot it as soon a possible): it isn't done for God but it is done for the worshippers. It makes them feel good; it makes them feel worthy; it is done for themselves.

[Diogenes]

I think worshiping is something that is done freely. If it would be done as commanded, it would be just obeying orders. I have understood worshiping is basically same as giving credit for someone. In this case it would mean for example give thanks to God for what He has done. If we would give God's credit to someone else, it would be wrong. We can choose not to give credit to Him, but it can also be seen wrong, if He truly deserves the credit.

Despite the fact the Bible uses the word "worship," we can, if you insist, change the parameters of our Alien's request. How about "... whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life?"
It is my prediction that it does not matter if our Alien's circumstances, love for us, or reward is exactly like the Jewish God's. It will not matter to the believer. Because it is not truth or logic that bind him to his beliefs. It is merely tradition. That is the point of this thought experiment.

[1213]

...How about "... whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life?"
It is my prediction that it does not matter if our Alien's circumstances, love for us, or reward is exactly like the Jewish God's. It will not matter to the believer. Because it is not truth or logic that bind him to his beliefs. It is merely tradition. That is the point of this thought experiment.

I think the problem with your thought experiment is that you take one line and then assume it is all. For example this "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" means nothing, if you don't know/understand the rest of the text. In Bible, people perish because of their sin/evilness. By believing Jesus one could have sin forgiven and become righteous, renounce evil. If person doesn't believe and remains evil, also the judgment for evil remains.

I said therefore to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
John 8:24

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

[1213]

...No, you are commanded to do it....

No, I am not.

...What is NOT recognised as a problem, ever, by the believers (the atheists saw it) is why God would even want that. Why would he (or even an ET with advanced technology) want people chanting prayers to him?...

That is quite ignorant question. But, I can understand it from an atheist. It is much more disappointing when Christians don't know these:

The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25

Pure religion [religious worship] and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
James 1:27

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to 1213 in post #26]

That is quite ignorant question. But, I can understand it from an atheist.

Moderator Comment

Please do not make uncivil comments or disparage an entire group of people (per the forum Rules).

______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics..

[TRANSPONDER]

...No, you are commanded to do it....

No, I am not.

I think you are.

Matthew 28:20
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Just one of many, many directives to obey what Jesus and God commanded all those who believe in them, and aside from the ones about OT commandments. I am holding back on further comment as I want to see how you can possibly explain that asronishing comment that God (Jesus) hasn't commanded you to do this and that or that it doesn't matter even if he did.

...What is NOT recognised as a problem, ever, by the believers (the atheists saw it) is why God would even want that. Why would he (or even an ET with advanced technology) want people chanting prayers to him?...

That is quite ignorant question. But, I can understand it from an atheist. It is much more disappointing when Christians don't know these:

The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things.
Acts 17:24-25

Pure religion [religious worship] and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
James 1:27

Aside that James was head of the Nazorenes and did not subscribe to Paul's doctrine of Faith not works (he thought faith was invalid without works) you are ignoring the whole business of organised religion. You may have a personal brand of religion all of your own, that does not bow to the commands to do the stuff of prayer, and worship, but as I said to Tammy, that is between you and religion, and if you dismiss and disregard religion, with organised prayer, worship and hymn -synging, we can discuss that later, but if you are not supporting Christianity mainstream worship, we can end right here as none of your posts relate to organised God -worship (or why an alien ET would want it).

But aside that you seem to to be referring to Biblequotes to underline your own (apparent) departures from mainstream Christianity,and aside that I wouldn't trust Acts as anything more than a biographical fantasy loosely based on Paul's letters AND aside that the Gospel agenda (my take) is aimed at sidelining all Jewish worship, places of worship and their kind of worship, that rather puts you in line with atheism and admiration for Nature and disregarding rote rituals, rather than Atheists being in line with you. But then I'd expect you to want to understand the universe as it is (through science) rather than as the Churches (and not all of them) see it - as described in Genesis. So aside from going back to your own drawing -board, it is the designs of the mainstream Christian drawing -board that seem to be relevant here, not what doodled on yours.

And when that is sorted, back to the idea of just how we could tell a god (never mind which god) from an advanced Alien ET flying saucer pilot.
Well for one thing he's actually put in an appearance and would probably be a lot more polite about humans than your average manmade Deity. is



Of course that is entertainment and fantasy and not to be taken seriously, e.g that China even back then would ever consider 'full disclosure' to its' populace.

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Why not put it on its head? Why can’t such a superior being comply with eternal ideas of democracy and human rights?
Democracy and human rights are enshrined in the Bible by the Commandment that says you must respect your fellow human beings and all their possessions and so on. That must be the answer. Wisdom never goes against democracy and human rights.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

Why not put it on its head? Why can’t such a superior being comply with eternal ideas of democracy and human rights?
Democracy and human rights are enshrined in the Bible by the Commandment that says you must your fellow human beings and all their possessions and so on. That must be the answer. Wisdom never goes against democracy and human rights.

A good question, and it points up the reverse side of the 'Morality' argument. 'There would be no morality without God'. Not only is morality known in other cultures, but the OT morality is so brutal that Christians have either to either say this wasn't God at all or go full dictator 'Good or bad, you'd better do what he says'. Paul even put his finger on it when he said that righteousness wasn't from a set of 10 Laws, but was 'written on our hearts'

In his day nobody understood human moral instinct and thought it had to be a god (name your own) doing it. I've seen the understanding of morals and ethics (ever since the discover of DNA and how instinct works) as a natural and evolved (biologically and socially) human pmenomenon and we no longer need a god (let alone a particular god) to explain it any more that we need a god to explain the stuff around us (apart from the remaining gap for God, cosmic origins).

All this is to clear the ground of religious clutter so that any alien ET individual (or visiting species) would not have to pretend to be a god, and if it did, we should be very suspicious of its' motives. The idea of a god or messiah coming on a cloud and commanding Do this! Do That! is passe and primitive, and the apologists now have to deny what's in their own Bible in order to made Biblegod the ideal good and kind being that we could expect a god to be.

I suppose that if either a god or a starship captain arrived to put things right, it wouldn't matter which it was, so long as it espoused the ideals that our species holds to be for the good of humanity. Whichever, it should utterly clear that no religion is adequate for those ideals, and those who insist that theirs is, is simply in denial, and the sooner we, human society, understand this and shout 'collectively' "You will not tell us what to do anymore", the better for us all.