Second gathering of Israel

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Second gathering of Israel

Post #1

Post by Revelations won »

The scriptures speak of a coming latter day when the Lord God of Israel will set his hand again the second time to gather all Israel and fulfill his promise that they shall again inherit the lands of their inheritance.

It is obvious that most of these mighty events are yet to be fulfilled.

How and in what manner will all this be accomplished?

How will the tribes of Israel be identified?

Who will gather them?

Where are they today?

Where are the ten lost tribes of Israel today?

Are we now living in the “DISPENSATION OF THE FULNESS OF TIMES”?

The following scriptures give an interesting introduction to the latter day gathering of the House of Israel.


Ephesians 1:
10
That in the "dispensation of the fulness of times" he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ezekiel 11:
14
Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
15
Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession.
16
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18
And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20
That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


Jeremiah 3:
17
At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

18
In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

Ezekiel 28:
25
Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
26
And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.


Ezekiel 37:
12
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13
And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.



21
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.


Ezekiel 39:

6
And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8
Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10
So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12
And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13
Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14
And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.


25
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26
After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27
When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28
Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29
Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

collin88x wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:53 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:32 am
Revelations won wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:55 am ... the prophets were not referring to the tribe of Judy only, but are directly speaking the house of Israel, which includes all twelve tribes which compose the HOUSE of Israel.

"We believe that all references to "the house of Israel, which includes all twelve tribes" in the "New Testament" refers to spirit anointed Christians from a variety of nations".


JW
There is no such thing as spiritual Israel.

Of course there is.


GALATIANS 4: 28, 29

Now you, brothers, are children of the promise the same as Isaac was. But just as then the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit, so also now.




RELATED POSTS


Who make up "spirituual" Israel ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 11#p900111

When Paul said "all Israel" would be saved was he refering to fleshly /natural Israel or SPIRITUAL Israel ? [Onewithim]
viewtopic.php?p=875857#p875857

Who are the REAL twelve tribes of Israel ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 7#p1023147
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , BORN AGAIN and ... THE 144, 000
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #12

Post by collin88x »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:56 am
collin88x wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:53 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:32 am
Revelations won wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:55 am ... the prophets were not referring to the tribe of Judy only, but are directly speaking the house of Israel, which includes all twelve tribes which compose the HOUSE of Israel.

"We believe that all references to "the house of Israel, which includes all twelve tribes" in the "New Testament" refers to spirit anointed Christians from a variety of nations".


JW
There is no such thing as spiritual Israel.

Of course there is.


GALATIANS 4: 28, 29

Now you, brothers, are children of the promise the same as Isaac was. But just as then the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit, so also now.




RELATED POSTS


Who make up "spirituual" Israel ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 11#p900111

When Paul said "all Israel" would be saved was he refering to fleshly /natural Israel or SPIRITUAL Israel ? [Onewithim]
viewtopic.php?p=875857#p875857

Who are the REAL twelve tribes of Israel ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 7#p1023147
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , BORN AGAIN and ... THE 144, 000
That has nothing to do with spiritual Israel my man. That's all referring to the house of Israel. With all due respect but many so not understand Pauls writings. He spoke in reference to only old testament scriptures and prophecies. He was a master of the law in Israel. He was a Jew from the tribe of Benjamin. Again read Romans 9:1-5. The only thing spiritual about Israel is the 9 tribes that were cut off from the old covenant being given a new opportunity to be grafted back into the promise between God and Israel by accepting Christ. which is the new covenant between God and Israel..

Amos 3:1-2. God said you (Israelites) ONLY have I known of all nations in the earth. Fact is God is only the God of Israel. And none else.

Joel 2:27 (KJV) And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

That's pretty self explanatory.... NONE ELSE. Nothing's changed. I know the theory, God abandoned Israel due to their sin and decided to allow all nations into a covenant with him. But that's pure false doctrine. Here's why.

God did not abandon Israel. He cut off a portion of Israel but remained still in a covenant with the smaller portion (the Jew sect) kingdom of Judah (judah Benjamin and Levi) he brought Christ through the Jews first to establish Judah as head tribe over all Israel. This is why he said don't go into the way of the "gentiles" when he was doing his missions.

The GENTILES there were referring to the portion of Israel cut off from the old covenant with God and for a time declared not his people (gentile'd)

But after his death and resurrection and a good number of Jews converted to the new covenant in Christ? the mission was then to go fetch the rest of Israel who were scattered abroad among all nations. (that's why he said go teach "all nations" because Israelites we're among all nations.

Notice Paul sought to speak to HIS PEOPLE in Rome. He never sought to speak to and teach Romans the gospel. He only desired to deal with his own.

Christ only taught Jews. He did not teach Romans, or any other nation. so I don't understand the narrative he came to die for all people because that's just simply not true biblical doctrine. It's all in house and his death was a plan to save that particular nation from their curses from God.

Idk how you can even try to combat that esp after reading Joel 2:27 none else is none else.... That's irrefutable scriptural evidence. ..

It's all about Israel. Period.

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Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GALATIANS 4: 28, 29

Now you, brothers, are children of the promise the same as Isaac was. But just as then the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit, so also now.
collin88x wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:07 pm... That's all referring to the house of Israel.
No you are wrong. Notice Paul is contrasting (saying they are different) two different types. He says "... the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit"
TYPE 1: The one born through natural or fleshly descent (meaning the literal decsendant of Abraham)

TYPE2: The one born through spirit (meaning the the one that receives the Abrahamic* promise)
* the Abrahamic promise is a special promise made to Abraham by God


The point Paul makes to the Galatians is that somone can be TYPE 2 without being a natural born decendant of Abraham (type 1).


GALATIAN 3: 26-29

You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.

So someone can be Greek, NOT a natural Israelite but be considered by God a son of Abraham born {quote} "through spirit". ie a "spiritual" Israelite.





RELATED POSTS


Who make up "spirituual" Israel ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 11#p900111

When Paul said "all Israel" would be saved was he refering to fleshly /natural Israel or SPIRITUAL Israel ? [Onewithim]
viewtopic.php?p=875857#p875857

Who are the REAL twelve tribes of Israel ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 7#p1023147
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS , SPIRITUAL ISRAEL and ... THE 144, 000
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #14

Post by collin88x »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:46 pm
GALATIANS 4: 28, 29

Now you, brothers, are children of the promise the same as Isaac was. But just as then the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit, so also now.
collin88x wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:07 pm... That's all referring to the house of Israel.
No you are wrong. Notice Paul is contrasting (saying they are different) two different types. He says "... the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit"
TYPE 1: The one born through natural or fleshly descent (meaning the literal decsendant of Abraham)

TYPE2: The one born through spirit (meaning the the one that receives the Abrahamic* promise)
* the Abrahamic promise is a special promise made to Abraham by God


The point Paul makes to the Galatians is that somone can be TYPE 2 without being a natural born decendant of Abraham (type 1).


GALATIAN 3: 26-29

You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.

So someone can be Greek, NOT a natural Israelite but be considered by God a son of Abraham born {quote} "through spirit". ie a "spiritual" Israelite.





RELATED POSTS


Who make up "spirituual" Israel ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 11#p900111

When Paul said "all Israel" would be saved was he refering to fleshly /natural Israel or SPIRITUAL Israel ? [Onewithim]
viewtopic.php?p=875857#p875857

Who are the REAL twelve tribes of Israel ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 7#p1023147
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , BORN AGAIN and ... THE 144, 000
Brother. Number 1 a Greek represents just 1 nation not all nations what about Egyptians, Romans, Assyrians, Persians, Babylonians, Edomites, Hamites, ect? Since when did Greek become a blanket title for all nations? All nations aren't Greek so that's a red flag there in that understanding.

Now let's clear it up.

Neither Jew nor Greek was not referring to Israel vs non blood Israelites. Again greeks don't represent all nations outside of Israel. Greek is just one nation of people who are descendants of the Edomites mind you who God hates.

Malachi 1:1-5 (KJV) "The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau (Edom) Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains (governments) and his heritage waste for the dragons (nations) of the wilderness. (This is referring to the fall of the ancient greco-roman empire in the late 400s a.d.)

Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, (the dark ages/mideval times) but we will return and build the desolate places; (the Renaissance era) thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people (RACE/NATION/BLOODLINE) against whom the LORD hath indignation (strong hatred) for ever.

And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel." (The Israelites)

God HATES the bloodline of Esau forever. So no neither Jew nor Greek is not referring to actual Greeks being in God's good graces. He hates the Greeks/Romans and anybody descendants of the nation of Edom.


What Paul was referring to was not actual Greeks but hellinized jews who became like the greeks after years of being in subjection to the greeks during their time as captives in Greece. Which is documented in the APOCRYPHA.

Have you ever heard of hellinistic Jews? Look it up. It's key important history that you may have missed. history in the apocrypha on how the Jews suffered during captivity under the Greeks. And conformed and became like the greeks instead of like their own nation. neither Jew nor Greek is referring to hellinized jews "Greek". Not other nations. Again God hates Edom so....that's not a true statement to make declaring the Greeks God has favor to? Not only that but also declaring that Greek represents all nations outside of Israel when Greeks are just one nation.

Makes zero sense ..

Here's the definition of hellinized jews

"Traditionally, “Hellenistic Judaism” was a designation for Judaism in the Greek-speaking world, including those Jews who spoke Greek and adopted (to some extent) a Greek way of life. It has been argued, however, that all Judaism after the conquests of Alexander was Hellenistic Judaism."

Notice how it's all referring to JEWS not other nations.

Again it's all in house. There is no spiritual Israelite.

Romans 9:1-5 (KJV) "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen "according to the flesh:" (bloodline)

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth (owns/belongs) the adoption, (grafting in) and the glory, (rulership) and the covenants, (old&new/Christ) and the giving of the law (commandments), and the service of God, (protection) and the promises; (the land of Israel)!

Whose are the fathers, (ancestors/Abraham Isaac and Jacob/Israel ) and of whom as concerning the flesh
(the BLOODLINE) Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

All of that belongs to Israel according to the flesh. That's literally what Paul just said verbatim so how am I wrong? Don't get upset with me cuz weve been lied to and fed garbage doctrines of devil's (lies). If you ask me it's sick to make every one believe they are apart of something special when reality is no they aren't. And theyve been misinformed and deceived. I'm just the messenger but truth is truth.

And no matter where you go. It'll contradict the prophecies of the old testament. But nothing contradicts when you realize it's all in house and about Israel and God making a new covenant with them. Period.

How can one read these things and go "spiritual Israel" when it's clearly regarding according to the flesh? when it said not all Israel are Israel? That was referring to just because one is born an Israelite does not mean they automatically inherit the promises. They have to accept Christ first and try to walk accordingly. Then they are counted as Israel to God. That's the only "spiritual" thing about Israel is those who accept Christ vs those who don't. Those who do are counted as Israel. But that had nothing to do with nations outside of Israel. Why would God promise Israel a forever promise to be a nation above all people? Then switch and now accept everybody and all nations can now have a piece of their land?

Nope.... Don't work that way. There's a reason the gates of new Jerusalem contain the names of Israelite tribes and none else. Jerusalem is Israel and Israel belongs to the Israelites forever. Thanks to the sacrafice of Christ for his people.

You have missed a lot of information and may have got caught up in the John 3:16 misinterpretation.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16 was a reference to Isaiah 45:17.

Isaiah 45:17 (KJV) But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end...

Israel is a WORLD (nation) without an end.

Christ referred to Israel as a world in the new testament.

John 18:20 (KJV) Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

The world=Jews (John 18:20)
A world= Israel (Isaiah 45:17)

And if it's spiritual Israel? Then explain this prophecy of the kingdom of God and how does a Christ came to save all people doctrine fit with this prophecy?

Zechariah 14:16-19 (KJV) "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations (the real gentiles) which came against Jerusalem (the nation of Israel) shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, (Jesus) the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth (non Israelites) unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (A curse/judgment from God)

And if the family (bloodline) of Egypt (Hamites) go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague (curse), wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen (non Israelites) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the "punishment" (judgments) of all nations (gentiles) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles."

You see that? That's the kingdom of GOD. that has not happened yet. So how does a Christ died for everybody doctrine possibly fit with this prophetic prophecy of the kingdom of God after Armageddon?

He's literally saying he will judge all nations who refuse to serve God. This is obviously excluding Israel as they are redeemed and in power in this day. If all people can be saved then how come there's judgments for all nations being rebellious against God in his kingdom?

You cant explain that. And with all due respect Paul cant help you. You are misinformed regarding the letters of Paul. The GENTILES Paul was referring to were Israelites in terms of salvation in Christ and a new covenant? Was israelites of the northern kingdom that had been disbanded from the OLD covenant. Thus for a time had no God, as he declared that section (not all Israel) but that particular section of Israel which was the biggest section, no more his people. That is until the new covenant was established with the house of Israel.

As it is written.

Matthew 15:23-26 (KJV) "But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

But he answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house (bloodline) of Israel."
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
But he answered and said, It is not meet (good) to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."

And guess what? He was referring to his fellow Israelite this woman was an Israelite. She was disbanded from the old COVENANT and thus considered a gentile or a dog. To be frank... He later blessed her because of her faith because the mission was going to come to those Israelites of the north who were repented and wished to accept Christ to be grafted back in to the family promise and covenant with God.

Even though his mission at that time was ONLY unto the JEWS then he sent the Jews once enough were established in the wisdom of the new covenant to teach, to go and gather the rest of Israel (teach all nations) was a reference to the fact that those Israelites dwelled in all nations and were scattered abroad, they lost their Israelite name and heritage and we're going by other nations names and heritages and cultures and languages.

But like Christ said my sheep "my people" hear my voice.

God's mission was unite all Israel back together as one nation through Christ sacrafice.

It has nothing to do with any other nation. God's never dealt with any other nation according to a covenant.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 (KJV) "For thou (Israelites) art an holy (separate) people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee (Israel) to be a special people unto himself, above all people (gentiles) that are upon the face of the earth.

(Israel is God's government over the earth, there is no equality when it comes to Israel in God's eyes.)

"The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:"

"But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

See how he declared his LOVE for Israel. Saying his love is his CHOICE. he chose Israel and made a covenant with them forever.

He has to discipline them for a time but through Christ sacrafice allowed a remnant of the nation to be reserved for redemption in the end after the gentiles time is fulfilled.

As it is written:

2nd Esdras 6:9

9: "For Esau (Edom) is the end of the world, and Jacob (Israelites) is the beginning of it that followeth. [10] The hand of man is betwixt the heel and the hand: other question, Esdras, ask thou not."

Israel is the beginning of the world that follows after this one ends. This one is the gentiles world. Clearly. But Israel will govern and rule the next world (aka era in earth after armageddon) after this era has passed away.

Jew nor Greek was all referring to in house.

Romans 9:24-26 (KJV) "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, (Judah, Benjamin and Levi) but also of the Gentiles? (The northern kingdom Israelites)
As he saith also in Osee, (HOSEA) I will call them my people, which were not my people; (Gentiles) and her beloved, which was not beloved. (No covenant)

And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people (gentiles); there shall they be called the children of the living God."


Now Paul was referring to this particular scripture in the book of Hosea of the old testament.

Hosea 1:1-11 (KJV) "The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, (the Jews) and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel. (Northern kingdom/9 tribes)

The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea.

And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.
So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

(Wife of whoredoms represented the northern kingdom Israelites actions of idolatry with the other nations and falling away from acknowledging God as their God)

And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. (The northern kingdom/9 tribes God would end their kingdom)

And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow (power) of Israel (9 tribes) in the valley of Jezreel.

And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; (9 tribes) but I will utterly take them away.

But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah (Jews/3 tribes), and will SAVE them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. (Christ prophecy)

Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.

Then said God, Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. (Referring to the 9 tribes, God declared them no more his people...."but only for a time".....not forever.)

Yet the number of the children of Israel (9 tribes) shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, (gentiles) there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. (New Covenant)

Then shall the children of Judah (Jews) and the children of Israel (9 tribes) be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, (Christ) and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

See ... That's what Paul was referring to. He referred to ISRAELITES as GENTILES in Romans 9.

This is irrefutable evidence. Your question should be what will be the nations role in the Kingdom of God. Not trying to convince a false doctrine that Christ came to save all nations. When clearly it's all being reference to Israel according to the flesh just like at the beginning of Romans 9.

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Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:21 pmThat's what Paul was referring to. He referred to ISRAELITES as GENTILES in Romans 9.

If a natural born Israelite can be considered a "gentile"; then a gentile who is Greek* can, by the same standards, be considered an Israelite ; a "spiritual Israelite".

* or of any other nation unrelated to Abraham
collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:21 pm Since when did Greek become a blanket title for all nations?
Image
Source : https://studybible.info/vines/Gentiles
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Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #16

Post by collin88x »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:04 pm
collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:21 pmThat's what Paul was referring to. He referred to ISRAELITES as GENTILES in Romans 9.

If a natural born Israelite can be considered a "gentile"; then a gentile who is Greek* can, by the same standards, be considered an Israelite ; a "spiritual Israelite".

* or of any other nation unrelated to Abraham
collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:21 pm Since when did Greek become a blanket title for all nations?
Image
Source : https://studybible.info/vines/Gentiles
But it wasn't referring to Greeks in the flesh. It was referring to hellinized jews (Israelites in the flesh)

A gentile means one apart from God. The Israelites of the north became gentiles because God cut them off from the old covenant with him. When he declared them "ye are not my people" that means they were looked at as gentiles at that point..

That's unTIL the sacrafice of Christ. which ushered in a new covenant so those Israelites who were once considered not his people anymore? We're again called his children (his chosen ones)

And the reference to Greek was implying all nations. Greek is not all nations, it's one nation. It didn't say gentile it said Greek. referring to HELLINIZED JEWS.

But sadly folks don't know that history because their bibles aren't complete as they are missing the apocrypha which contains 12 more books and was originally apart of the first king James translation.. which the Catholics took out in the late 1700s.

If you read the apocrypha you would know the history between the Jews and the Greeks during that time. After Alexander the great rose up and took power over Europe the greeks wound up heavily influencing the world. Including the Jews. And many Jews fell away from their own culture and heritage and confirmed heavily into the Greeks culture and heritage, spoke their languages used their names ECT.

Thus they were called "Greeks" hellinized jews.

Like today for example were called Americans. But we have our own actual nation we belong to. But we're heavily immersed into the ways of the American kingdom.

Paul for example. Had Roman citizenship and spoke Greek. But he always claimed I'm an Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin a Jew. Though in from (born in) Tarsus. I'm still a Jew, a Hebrew Israelite.

In that case when they said neither Jew nor Greek though he meant like neither a Jew who is fervent in the Jew culture or Greek a Jew who is heavily immersed in Greek culture and speaking Latin (Greek) If they come to Christ? They are all one in God's eyes.

There was division at that time. The Jews looked down on the Greek speaking and culture practicing Jews. "Hellinized". But once Christ came into the picture it brought them all back on the same page.

They didn't want to deal with eachother then but the mission was to unite then all back together.

so in conclusion Greek= hellinized Jew.
Jew= equals non hellinized Jew. In the neither Jew nor Greek verse. That IS the factual correct understanding of the verse.

I already proved that Paul was referring to Israelites as gentiles at the end of Romans 9. you must not have read what I posted.

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Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #17

Post by collin88x »

collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:11 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:04 pm
collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:21 pmThat's what Paul was referring to. He referred to ISRAELITES as GENTILES in Romans 9.

If a natural born Israelite can be considered a "gentile"; then a gentile who is Greek* can, by the same standards, be considered an Israelite ; a "spiritual Israelite".

* or of any other nation unrelated to Abraham
collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:21 pm Since when did Greek become a blanket title for all nations?
Image
Source : https://studybible.info/vines/Gentiles
But it wasn't referring to Greeks in the flesh. It was referring to hellinized jews (Israelites in the flesh)


"Hellenistic Judaism was a form of Judaism in classical antiquity that combined Jewish religious tradition with elements of Greek culture. "

How did Hellenism affect Jews?
"The Hellenic influence pervaded everything, and even in the very strongholds of Judaism it modified the organization of the state, the laws, and public affairs, art, science, and industry, affecting even the ordinary things of life and the common associations of the people […]"

That's what Greek was referring to. Hellinized jews, not actual non blood related israelites.

And gentile means one apart from God.

The Israelites of the north became gentiles because God cut them off from the old covenant with him. When he declared them "ye are not my people" that means they were looked at and regarded gentiles at that point..

This is why Christ did the parable about the good Samaritan. Which was referring to them forgiving the northern kingdom Israelites going forward because they're your people and one of them could save your life while one of your own sect (fellow Jews) kingdom of Judah, could do you wrong. Which was manifested in his death when "his own received him not" referring to the kingdom of Judah.

CORNELIOUS was an Israelite, the woman at the well was an Israelite of Samaria (capital of northern Israel) the woman that begged Christ for a blessing, calling her a woman of Canaan (original name of israels land) these were gentile names casted on these Israelites as they were regarded as gentiles at this time of Christ until his death and resurrection.

Which ushered in a new covenant so those Israelites who were once considered not his people anymore? We're again called his children (his chosen ones)

And the reference to Greek was implying all nations. Greek is not all nations, it's one nation. It didn't say gentile it said Greek. referring to HELLINIZED JEWS.

But sadly folks don't know that history because their bibles aren't complete as they are missing the apocrypha which contains 12 more books and was originally apart of the first king James translation.. which the Catholics took out in the late 1700s.

If you read the apocrypha you would know the history between the Jews and the Greeks during that time. After Alexander the great rose up and took power over Europe the greeks wound up heavily influencing the world. Including the Jews. And many Jews fell away from their own culture and heritage and confirmed heavily into the Greeks culture and heritage, spoke their languages used their names ECT.

Thus they were called "Greeks" hellinized jews.

Like today for example were called Americans. But we have our own actual nation we belong to. But we're heavily immersed into the ways of the American kingdom.

Paul for example. Had Roman citizenship and spoke Greek. But he always claimed I'm an Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin a Jew. Though in from (born in) Tarsus. I'm still a Jew, a Hebrew Israelite.

In that case when they said neither Jew nor Greek though he meant like neither a Jew who is fervent in the Jew culture or Greek a Jew who is heavily immersed in Greek culture and speaking Latin (Greek) If they come to Christ? They are all one in God's eyes.

There was division at that time. The Jews looked down on the Greek speaking and culture practicing Jews. "Hellinized". But once Christ came into the picture it brought them all back on the same page.

They didn't want to deal with eachother then but the mission was to unite then all back together.

so in conclusion Greek= hellinized Jew.
Jew= equals non hellinized Jew. In the neither Jew nor Greek verse. That IS the factual correct understanding of the verse.

I already proved that Paul was referring to Israelites as gentiles at the end of Romans 9. you must not have read what I posted.

And then you didn't even deal with zechariah 14. Which clearly reveals the kingdom of God contrary to the doctor that Christ died for all people which is false.

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Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #18

Post by collin88x »

collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:20 pm
collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:11 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:04 pm
collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:21 pmThat's what Paul was referring to. He referred to ISRAELITES as GENTILES in Romans 9.

If a natural born Israelite can be considered a "gentile"; then a gentile who is Greek* can, by the same standards, be considered an Israelite ; a "spiritual Israelite".

* or of any other nation unrelated to Abraham
collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 3:21 pm Since when did Greek become a blanket title for all nations?
Image
Source : https://studybible.info/vines/Gentiles
But it wasn't referring to Greeks in the flesh. It was referring to hellinized jews (Israelites in the flesh)


"Hellenistic Judaism was a form of Judaism in classical antiquity that combined Jewish religious tradition with elements of Greek culture. "

How did Hellenism affect Jews?
"The Hellenic influence pervaded everything, and even in the very strongholds of Judaism it modified the organization of the state, the laws, and public affairs, art, science, and industry, affecting even the ordinary things of life and the common associations of the people […]"

That's what Greek was referring to. Hellinized jews, not actual non blood related israelites.

And gentile means one apart from God.

The Israelites of the north became gentiles because God cut them off from the old covenant with him. When he declared them "ye are not my people" that means they were looked at and regarded gentiles at that point..

This is why Christ did the parable about the good Samaritan. Which was referring to them forgiving the northern kingdom Israelites going forward because they're your people and one of them could save your life while one of your own sect (fellow Jews) kingdom of Judah, could do you wrong. Which was manifested in his death when "his own received him not" referring to the kingdom of Judah.

CORNELIOUS was an Israelite, the woman at the well was an Israelite of Samaria (capital of northern Israel) the woman that begged Christ for a blessing, calling her a woman of Canaan (original name of israels land) these were gentile names casted on these Israelites as they were regarded as gentiles at this time of Christ until his death and resurrection.

Which ushered in a new covenant so those Israelites who were once considered not his people anymore? We're again called his children (his chosen ones)

And the reference to Greek was implying all nations. Greek is not all nations, it's one nation. It didn't say gentile it said Greek. referring to HELLINIZED JEWS.

But sadly folks don't know that history because their bibles aren't complete as they are missing the apocrypha which contains 12 more books and was originally apart of the first king James translation.. which the Catholics took out in the late 1700s.

If you read the apocrypha you would know the history between the Jews and the Greeks during that time. After Alexander the great rose up and took power over Europe the greeks wound up heavily influencing the world. Including the Jews. And many Jews fell away from their own culture and heritage and confirmed heavily into the Greeks culture and heritage, spoke their languages used their names ECT.

Thus they were called "Greeks" hellinized jews.

Like today for example were called Americans. But we have our own actual nation we belong to. But we're heavily immersed into the ways of the American kingdom.

Paul for example. Had Roman citizenship and spoke Greek. But he always claimed I'm an Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin a Jew. Though in from (born in) Tarsus. I'm still a Jew, a Hebrew Israelite.

In that case when they said neither Jew nor Greek though he meant like neither a Jew who is fervent in the Jew culture or Greek a Jew who is heavily immersed in Greek culture and speaking Latin (Greek) If they come to Christ? They are all one in God's eyes.

There was division at that time. The Jews looked down on the Greek speaking and culture practicing Jews. "Hellinized". But once Christ came into the picture it brought them all back on the same page.

They didn't want to deal with eachother then but the mission was to unite then all back together.

so in conclusion Greek= hellinized Jew.
Jew= equals non hellinized Jew. In the neither Jew nor Greek verse. That IS the factual correct understanding of the verse.

I already proved that Paul was referring to Israelites as gentiles at the end of Romans 9. you must not have read what I posted.

And then you didn't even deal with zechariah 14. Which clearly reveals the kingdom of God contrary to the doctrine that Christ died for all people which is false.

If the spiritual Israel doctrine is true? Then folks better start describing the kingdom of God much different then what's been taught because there is still laws and judgments for breaking those laws for all nations in the Kingdom of God according to zechariah 14

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Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

collin88x wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:11 pm
But it wasn't referring to Greeks in the flesh. It was referring to hellinized jews (Israelites in the flesh)
Image

Further as I said, if a if a Jew in the flesh can be a scriptural"Greek" ; then by the same standing a Greek or any other nation in the flesh can be scriptural (spiritual) Jew.


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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #20

Post by collin88x »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:46 pm
GALATIANS 4: 28, 29

Now you, brothers, are children of the promise the same as Isaac was. But just as then the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit, so also now.
collin88x wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 2:07 pm... That's all referring to the house of Israel.
No you are wrong. Notice Paul is contrasting (saying they are different) two different types. He says "... the one born through natural descent began persecuting the one born through spirit"
TYPE 1: The one born through natural or fleshly descent (meaning the literal decsendant of Abraham)

TYPE2: The one born through spirit (meaning the the one that receives the Abrahamic* promise)
* the Abrahamic promise is a special promise made to Abraham by God


The point Paul makes to the Galatians is that somone can be TYPE 2 without being a natural born decendant of Abraham (type 1).


GALATIAN 3: 26-29

You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.

So someone can be Greek, NOT a natural Israelite but be considered by God a son of Abraham born {quote} "through spirit". ie a "spiritual" Israelite.





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Galatians 3:28 (KJV) "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

So by this you believe that a gentile is on an equal playing field with an Israelite? You believe Jew here represents all 12 tribes of Israel also? Since the understanding of Galatians is that a Jew is any one of Israelite descent and the greek is a non Israelite.

but what about the 9 tribes that at the time of the Jews were no longer apart of the old covenant between God and Israel?

Why would God now bring in all people and reject them? When he promised to save them in the end? when he declared where it was said you are not my people (gentiles) referring to Israelites, there you shall be called the children of God (Israel in Christ)

This is what happened in acts. It was Israelites coming back to a covenant with God, a new covenant through accepting Christ sacrafice and trying to apply his wisdom to their lives. .

The Jews are the leaders of the nation of Israel. The teachers, prophets, kings in the nation. God said he would save Judah first so the rest of Israel can't magnify themselves against Judah (the Jews) the hierarchy of the nation of Israel.

Now if God says he doesn't even want the rest of Israel magnifying and boasting themselves up against the Jews and this is all in house? What makes you think he wants actual gentiles who have nothing to do with the house of Israel, magnifying themselves against his people?

It don't work that way.. The understanding is flawed brother.

To the Jew first then the gentile. (Israelite of the northern kingdom)

Has nothing to do with any other nation. Matter fact this one here should put the whole topic to bed for good.

Psalms 147:19-20 (KJV) "He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD."


Amos 3:1-2 (KJV) "Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,
You ONLY have I known (chosen) of all the families (nations) of the earth: therefore I will punish you (Israelites) for all your iniquities."

the nations don't even know God's judgments yet. They're not judged by keeping God's commandments like Israel is. They will be judged due to how they treated Israel. and the order in God's kingdom will go as such. The lowest nations will be the ones who treated Israel very poorly, enslaving them and persecuting them.

The nations who didn't harm Israel, will still be in subjection to Israel's rule and in that day will be judged by the laws of the land which will be God's in that day.

Same as today, we break a law we are judged for it accordingly. Will be the same in God's kingdom. Obey they law? And live a good life. Rebell and deal with judgments from Christ and the Israelites. Orchestrated by God. But Israel will be the ruling class over all nations in God's kingdom.

There's no such scripture stating the kingdom of heaven
(kingdom of God on Earth) is a place where every one goes to on the same equal level. That don't exist. And there's a mountain of scriptures and prophecies against that theory.

Deuteronomy 28:1, 13 (KJV) "And it shall come to pass, if thou (the israelites) shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee (the Israelites) on high above ABOVE ALL NATIONS of the earth:

And the LORD shall make thee (the Israelites) the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above ONLY, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:"

You see the prophecy? Nothing about that is equal. On high above all nations. You will ONLY be the head. (in control, calling the shots in society) establishing what can and can't be done and who deserves and who doesn't deserve discipline or judgment. Thats Israel's inheritance not all nations. All nations are waiting to be put in subjection to the new regime of God's lead by the Israelites.

As of now? Israel is he who needs saving and redeeming because they've been suffering curses after curses from God for falling away from him as the definition of Israel means "he is a prince of power with God (son of God) though he wrestles with God (rebels) with men (all nations) he has prevailed (will rule over/govern)


The Bible is about God's relationship with Israel their fall and redemption back to glory over the world thanks to the sacrafice of Christ who will be king over all. that's Israel's name definition in a nutshell.

Isaiah 14:1-2 (KJV) "For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in THEIR OWN land: and the strangers (gentiles) shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave (follow) to the house of Jacob.

And the people (Israelites) shall take them (gentiles), and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess (OWN/RULE OVER) them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, (slaves) whose captives (slaves) they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors."

Now how does that even remotely sound like all people are equal in Christ? And can be saved? It doesn't and contradicts that whole doctrine. That's because that doctrine simply is not true and the correct interpretation of the new testament.

God just said Israel will be put back in their own land and will take slaves of the nations who enslaved them, oppressed those who oppressed them and posses and rule over the gentiles who will be their servants in their land.

That is not equal....

And there's no where else you can go with that....


Jeremiah 16:19 (KJV) "O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers (ancestors) have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

spiritual Israel doctrine is apart of those lies and vanity and no profit the gentiles have inherited from their ancestors fabricating the word of God.

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