Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[William]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #278]

No you are wrong--Free will makes it possible for any to fall or stand.

[Replying to POI in post #267]

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Is there evidence that it is done for some?

If so, then, that it is not done for all should be also be evident so one would have to look into that evidence.
___________
The argument usually has to do with an individual having free will.

IF:
Free Will is the ability to tell ones brain what to think
THEN:
One has a possible answer as to why it is only done for some and not all.

"No you are wrong--Free will makes it possible for any to fall or stand."

[kjw47]

Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.

Then God did not cause Solomon to become inexorably drawn to Him. Why? Because if He did, it would be impossible for Solomon to waiver and fail.

Then God did not change Solomon's heart. Why? Because if He did change Solomon's heart, God would cause Solomon to do everything He asks (i.e.) --> "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." Ez. 36:27

As to the rest of your examples, it's all the same....

YET AGAIN, God implements cause to some, and not others. Just cause all!

So apparently, God does not want me to know He exists.

No you are wrong--Free will makes it possible for any to fall or stand. Jesus death opened the door to all. It takes believing Jesus over errors. My post-The real Jesus points to who actually listens to him. You have free will-listen to him or not. If you do listen and show a desire, God will help you.

You obviously do not know your own Bible.

quite the opposite.

[kjw47]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #278]

No you are wrong--Free will makes it possible for any to fall or stand.

[Replying to POI in post #267]

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Is there evidence that it is done for some?

If so, then, that it is not done for all should be also be evident so one would have to look into that evidence.
___________
The argument usually has to do with an individual having free will.

IF:
Free Will is the ability to tell ones brain what to think
THEN:
One has a possible answer as to why it is only done for some and not all.

"No you are wrong--Free will makes it possible for any to fall or stand."

Its not to difficult for God to see what each heart is. Those that actually love him and his son, have learned applied every utterance. The rest want their ears tickled with words like-You are saved. So they think they can go through life and not obey Jesus.

[POI]

quite the opposite.

Great, then answer the following:

Since you agree that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, (and) God changes hearts, why not just do this for all?

BEFORE YOU ANSWER WITH THE SAME RESPONSE, please note...

1) inexorable means "impossible to stop or prevent"
2) change means "make (someone or something) different; alter or modify" <also> "replace (something) with something else, especially something of the same kind that is newer or better; substitute one thing for (another)."

So please pray for God to change me. Yes, I'm asking for intercessory prayer. I assume your believed upon God listens/answers (some) prayer... If I am not changed, it's logical to conclude one of the following:

A) You did not pray for me, which would be quite curious...
B) You did, and God ignored you, even though 1) and 2) imposes upon my will. And you already agreed that God does do this for some.
C) Your claimed god likely does not exist. But, I already know I cannot prove the unfalsifiable....

[TRANSPONDER]

Satan cause any to fall.

This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.

1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions.

Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.

He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness.

Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.

God doesnt change ones heart.

This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."

etc etc etc..................

The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.

This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.

Okay, now you are just being silly.

If you agree God can BOTH 1) cause some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, and also 2) change hearts; then such individuals, who He has selected, will not fail in His desired requests.

Your above answer, again is complete nonsense; unless you now wish to redact what you agreed with prior. (i.e.)

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Because most hearts are haughty, filled with pride and refuse to change. God sees those hearts clearly. All have this heart within-Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it. Many let that heart rule their lives. It causes them to reason many false reasonings that they live in as truth.

It is clear that either:

A) You do not understand
B) You are playing games

Either way, I think we might be done here....

Its clear you do not understand. Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.

The "Chase" as I understand it was the Best Christian case for their beliefs, but the above is just excuses for Why God just doesn't do whatever is needed to save everyone. The excuse is to blame humans for what God seems unable to do because of the Bigot and blame shifter Jeremiah (or whoever) finding silly rules against marrying foreign wives to excuse a good man, one of Israel's greatest, if you believe it as history, being treated..frankly as though there wasn't a god there at all.

Like I said recently, these excuses may do for the Faithful to bat away doubt and question, but they are feeble apologetics against the real doubts that we have about the reliability of the Bible and and the validity of Christian doctrines.

[kjw47]

quite the opposite.

Great, then answer the following:

Since you agree that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, (and) God changes hearts, why not just do this for all?

BEFORE YOU ANSWER WITH THE SAME RESPONSE, please note...

1) inexorable means "impossible to stop or prevent"
2) change means "make (someone or something) different; alter or modify" <also> "replace (something) with something else, especially something of the same kind that is newer or better; substitute one thing for (another)."

So please pray for God to change me. Yes, I'm asking for intercessory prayer. I assume your believed upon God listens/answers (some) prayer... If I am not changed, it's logical to conclude one of the following:

A) You did not pray for me, which would be quite curious...
B) You did, and God ignored you, even though 1) and 2) imposes upon my will. And you already agreed that God does do this for some.
C) Your claimed god likely does not exist. But, I already know I cannot prove the unfalsifiable....

Only God can give you an answer on that. I shared what i see. This is what God sees in mortals today--2Timothy 3.

[kjw47]

Satan cause any to fall.

This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.

1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions.

Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.

He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness.

Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.

God doesnt change ones heart.

This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."

etc etc etc..................

The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.

This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.

Okay, now you are just being silly.

If you agree God can BOTH 1) cause some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, and also 2) change hearts; then such individuals, who He has selected, will not fail in His desired requests.

Your above answer, again is complete nonsense; unless you now wish to redact what you agreed with prior. (i.e.)

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Because most hearts are haughty, filled with pride and refuse to change. God sees those hearts clearly. All have this heart within-Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it. Many let that heart rule their lives. It causes them to reason many false reasonings that they live in as truth.

It is clear that either:

A) You do not understand
B) You are playing games

Either way, I think we might be done here....

Its clear you do not understand. Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.

The "Chase" as I understand it was the Best Christian case for their beliefs, but the above is just excuses for Why God just doesn't do whatever is needed to save everyone. The excuse is to blame humans for what God seems unable to do because of the Bigot and blame shifter Jeremiah (or whoever) finding silly rules against marrying foreign wives to excuse a good man, one of Israel's greatest, if you believe it as history, being treated..frankly as though there wasn't a god there at all.

Like I said recently, these excuses may do for the Faithful to bat away doubt and question, but they are feeble apologetics against the real doubts that we have about the reliability of the Bible and and the validity of Christian doctrines.

You must have missed this-Deuteronomy 30:19--God set before all-LIFE or DEATH--its by our choice, by 5% lip service, 95% action.-- How many have even bothered listening to Jesus and learned EVERY utterance from God= FEW. They listen to the wrong teachers-2Cor 11:12-15--Those assure them-you are saved.

[TRANSPONDER]

Satan cause any to fall.

This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.

1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions.

Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.

He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness.

Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.

God doesnt change ones heart.

This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."

etc etc etc..................

The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.

This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.

Okay, now you are just being silly.

If you agree God can BOTH 1) cause some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, and also 2) change hearts; then such individuals, who He has selected, will not fail in His desired requests.

Your above answer, again is complete nonsense; unless you now wish to redact what you agreed with prior. (i.e.)

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Because most hearts are haughty, filled with pride and refuse to change. God sees those hearts clearly. All have this heart within-Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it. Many let that heart rule their lives. It causes them to reason many false reasonings that they live in as truth.

It is clear that either:

A) You do not understand
B) You are playing games

Either way, I think we might be done here....

Its clear you do not understand. Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.

The "Chase" as I understand it was the Best Christian case for their beliefs, but the above is just excuses for Why God just doesn't do whatever is needed to save everyone. The excuse is to blame humans for what God seems unable to do because of the Bigot and blame shifter Jeremiah (or whoever) finding silly rules against marrying foreign wives to excuse a good man, one of Israel's greatest, if you believe it as history, being treated..frankly as though there wasn't a god there at all.

Like I said recently, these excuses may do for the Faithful to bat away doubt and question, but they are feeble apologetics against the real doubts that we have about the reliability of the Bible and and the validity of Christian doctrines.

You must have missed this-Deuteronomy 30:19--God set before all-LIFE or DEATH--its by our choice, by 5% lip service, 95% action.-- How many have even bothered listening to Jesus and learned EVERY utterance from God= FEW. They listen to the wrong teachers-2Cor 11:12-15--Those assure them-you are saved.

How can anyone take these claims seriously? I have had Bible apologists roll up on Forums swearing that God gives NO guarantees (even when He does) and that nobody can count on being saved. Even if we subscribed to anything the Bible claimed, the scattershot of varied assertions have me at least saying 'These people do not know what they're talking about'. I know what it is - they get their own ideas (or what they've had preached to them), think God is Inspiring them, and then dig something hardly relevant out of the Bible to present as though it was support. It's a ludicrous exhibition, chum and you really have to come up with something better.

I know, I know that too.....you are doing God's Work in preaching to the unbelievers and even if they don't listen, you will have earned brownie points with God..

Fine. You do what you feel you must. No problem for us I just go on record as saying that tossing faithclaims and snippits of Bibletext at us accomplishes nothing whatsoever. Just for information, as they say.

[POI]

quite the opposite.

Great, then answer the following:

Since you agree that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, (and) God changes hearts, why not just do this for all?

BEFORE YOU ANSWER WITH THE SAME RESPONSE, please note...

1) inexorable means "impossible to stop or prevent"
2) change means "make (someone or something) different; alter or modify" <also> "replace (something) with something else, especially something of the same kind that is newer or better; substitute one thing for (another)."

So please pray for God to change me. Yes, I'm asking for intercessory prayer. I assume your believed upon God listens/answers (some) prayer... If I am not changed, it's logical to conclude one of the following:

A) You did not pray for me, which would be quite curious...
B) You did, and God ignored you, even though 1) and 2) imposes upon my will. And you already agreed that God does do this for some.
C) Your claimed god likely does not exist. But, I already know I cannot prove the unfalsifiable....

Only God can give you an answer on that. I shared what i see. This is what God sees in mortals today--2Timothy 3.

Since you like to throw out Verses, here's some:

Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23. So again, either:

A) You did not pray for me, which would be quite curious...
B) You did, and God ignored you, even though 1) and 2) imposes upon my will. And you already agreed that God does do this for some.
C) Your claimed god likely does not exist. But, I already know I cannot prove the unfalsifiable....

[POI]

They listen to the wrong teachers.

How do you know this is not you? I've read the same Bible you have. I really do not listen to any 'teacher'.

Do you really need a teacher, or, can you read and comprehend it for yourself?