Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
POI
Prodigy
Posts: 3282
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm
Has thanked: 1553 times
Been thanked: 1051 times

Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #1

Post by POI »

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7960
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 932 times
Been thanked: 3486 times

Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #291

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:32 pm
POI wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:12 pm
THANK YOU! This why I ask... Do you Christians, (which may not yet have responded), have anything to offer, (or), does it boil down to the topic of 'faith' ---- which can ultimately just as easily be applied to ANY other assertion?
The one thing I can say for them is that Christianity has at least proven over time that adopting the belief doesn't win you a Darwin award. This doesn't mean it is true but it might mean that it's still rational to believe it.

For example, you might have a population of extremely rational, logical individuals who probably well know that God isn't likely to exist, but they all recognise that if we all behave as if there is one (in other words, not screwing one another over even when we logically should) then, we all benefit. But because there is not really this Great Omniscient Rewarder and Punisher, people are essentially stuck with the otherwise logical conclusion that they ought to cheat whenever they can get away with it.

I'm not putting it past people to have this going on in the back of their heads.

And I have shown how intentionally believing something untrue can actually be rational.
Ah, Right :) I have seen that before, it is called the "We need it, true or not" apologetic, and I recall I first heard it on a news program where some Catholic (outside of Westminster Cathedral (1) was almost weeping as he swore that without religion, Civilisation would collapse. I don't believe it. I don't buy it as an apologetic for a religion or any religion that doesn't hold up under question (none of them do). It is a serious question as to whether a secular society can survive, work and even be a good one without religion. I think it can, and that it has in fact been secular, humanist society that has pushed morals and society along with religion fighting it and playing catch -up and claiming it was all their idea in the first place. I think that, with an understanding of society, morals and the social instinct, we can do better and move from doing Right because we'ill be punished if we don't, but doing it because it is better for us all.

It won't be easy :D but I think it would even with Problems (the selfish and anti - social) work better and with less self - delusion than the systems we have now where nobody understands what is going on (especially the ones at the top) and rush to religion for a quick easy explanation (as well as ponzi -scheme promises of payouts that you don't get until you're dead) and a pre -packaged meaning and purpose in life, because it's too much like hard work to find one for yourself.

(1) a catholic fane, not to be confused with Westminster abbey,

Online
kjw47
Under Probation
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:37 pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #292

Post by kjw47 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:28 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:14 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:06 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:35 pm
POI wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:19 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:16 pm
POI wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:59 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:46 am
POI wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:05 pm
kjw47 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:35 pm Satan cause any to fall.
This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.
kjw47 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:35 pm 1/3 of the angels fell to his deceptions.
Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.
kjw47 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:35 pm He tried to make Jesus fall in the wilderness.
Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.
kjw47 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:35 pm God doesnt change ones heart.
This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."


etc etc etc..................
kjw47 wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:35 pm The individual must change their hearts by learning and applying every utterance from God.
This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.
Okay, now you are just being silly.

If you agree God can BOTH 1) cause some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, and also 2) change hearts; then such individuals, who He has selected, will not fail in His desired requests.

Your above answer, again is complete nonsense; unless you now wish to redact what you agreed with prior. (i.e.)

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Because most hearts are haughty, filled with pride and refuse to change. God sees those hearts clearly. All have this heart within-Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it. Many let that heart rule their lives. It causes them to reason many false reasonings that they live in as truth.
It is clear that either:

A) You do not understand
B) You are playing games

Either way, I think we might be done here....

Its clear you do not understand. Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.
The "Chase" as I understand it was the Best Christian case for their beliefs, but the above is just excuses for Why God just doesn't do whatever is needed to save everyone. The excuse is to blame humans for what God seems unable to do because of the Bigot and blame shifter Jeremiah (or whoever) finding silly rules against marrying foreign wives to excuse a good man, one of Israel's greatest, if you believe it as history, being treated..frankly as though there wasn't a god there at all.

Like I said recently, these excuses may do for the Faithful to bat away doubt and question, but they are feeble apologetics against the real doubts that we have about the reliability of the Bible and and the validity of Christian doctrines.

You must have missed this-Deuteronomy 30:19--God set before all-LIFE or DEATH--its by our choice, by 5% lip service, 95% action.-- How many have even bothered listening to Jesus and learned EVERY utterance from God= FEW. They listen to the wrong teachers-2Cor 11:12-15--Those assure them-you are saved.
How can anyone take these claims seriously? I have had Bible apologists roll up on Forums swearing that God gives NO guarantees (even when He does) and that nobody can count on being saved. Even if we subscribed to anything the Bible claimed, the scattershot of varied assertions have me at least saying 'These people do not know what they're talking about'. I know what it is - they get their own ideas (or what they've had preached to them), think God is Inspiring them, and then dig something hardly relevant out of the Bible to present as though it was support. It's a ludicrous exhibition, chum and you really have to come up with something better.

I know, I know that too.....you are doing God's Work in preaching to the unbelievers and even if they don't listen, you will have earned brownie points with God..

Fine. You do what you feel you must. No problem for us :D I just go on record as saying that tossing faithclaims and snippits of Bibletext at us accomplishes nothing whatsoever. Just for information, as they say.

Best to learn all that Jesus taught. I have a thread -The real Jesus under Theology. Those 8 teachings clearly show who are his. This system is almost done. Dont miss out on entrance into Gods kingdom. This system life of 70-100 years is not worth throwing away trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years, never sick, never without, Not knowing bad anymore, not aging like now. continuous peace and harmony. etc, Gods kingdom is a cure all.

Online
kjw47
Under Probation
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:37 pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #293

Post by kjw47 »

POI wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:37 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:09 pm
POI wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:08 am
kjw47 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:03 pm quite the opposite.
Great, then answer the following:

Since you agree that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, (and) God changes hearts, why not just do this for all?

BEFORE YOU ANSWER WITH THE SAME RESPONSE, please note...

1) inexorable means "impossible to stop or prevent"
2) change means "make (someone or something) different; alter or modify" <also> "replace (something) with something else, especially something of the same kind that is newer or better; substitute one thing for (another)."

So please pray for God to change me. Yes, I'm asking for intercessory prayer. I assume your believed upon God listens/answers (some) prayer... If I am not changed, it's logical to conclude one of the following:

A) You did not pray for me, which would be quite curious...
B) You did, and God ignored you, even though 1) and 2) imposes upon my will. And you already agreed that God does do this for some.
C) Your claimed god likely does not exist. But, I already know I cannot prove the unfalsifiable....

Only God can give you an answer on that. I shared what i see. This is what God sees in mortals today--2Timothy 3.
Since you like to throw out Verses, here's some:

Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23. So again, either:

A) You did not pray for me, which would be quite curious...
B) You did, and God ignored you, even though 1) and 2) imposes upon my will. And you already agreed that God does do this for some.
C) Your claimed god likely does not exist. But, I already know I cannot prove the unfalsifiable....

I know 100% God exists. Everything everyone has is because of God. They owe him everything. But then there are ones like you living in darkness and refuse to listen to truth. And do not want to admit God is there. Most want to continue in sin.

Online
kjw47
Under Probation
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:37 pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #294

Post by kjw47 »

POI wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:41 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:14 pm They listen to the wrong teachers.
How do you know this is not you? I've read the same Bible you have. I really do not listen to any 'teacher'.

Do you really need a teacher, or, can you read and comprehend it for yourself?

Some of the bible can easily be understood, some of it cannot and one must be taught by the teachers who have Jesus, only those have truth. How do i know--Those 8 teachings from Jesus under--The real Jesus in Theology, shows clearly who are his. I have been kicked out of at least 6 trinity run sights for showing them those truths. The usual answers back is--Jesus didnt teach those things. Yet every single one of those teachings is in every translation on earth. Trinity religions teach little of what Jesus actually teaches. They assure the followers they are saved, so few bother to learn and obey Jesus. It takes effort.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #295

Post by Purple Knight »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:18 pm+I think that, with an understanding of society, morals and the social instinct, we can do better and move from doing Right because we'll be punished if we don't, but doing it because it is better for us all.
You and I can. Everyone on this forum can. But to be frank I don't know if most people can. We live in a hypercompetitive society where if we don't cheat, don't screw one another over at every opportunity, we might not succeed, might not make money, might not reproduce.

That's aside from the fact that I'm not even making that claim. My claim is not that society needs religion (it well might, but I actually don't think it does) but that religious beliefs at least don't win you a Darwin award. In other words, they're safe. You believe this system, and you can continue to exist. It's proven. For all we know, modern belief systems will make society crumble, because they haven't been around for 2000 years. They're not proven.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #296

Post by JoeyKnothead »

POI wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:41 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:14 pm They listen to the wrong teachers.
How do you know this is not you? I've read the same Bible you have. I really do not listen to any 'teacher'.

Do you really need a teacher, or, can you read and comprehend it for yourself?
This is one of the notions that shows religious belief is the product of humans, and not a god.

If the risk of eternal damnation was serious, surely an omniscient god would speak to us clearly and directly, in ways we individuals can understand.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7960
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 932 times
Been thanked: 3486 times

Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #297

Post by TRANSPONDER »

kjw47 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:13 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:28 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:14 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:06 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:35 pm
POI wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:19 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:16 pm
POI wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:59 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:46 am
POI wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:05 pm

This could only happen to the ones for which God did not cause to be inexorably drawn to Him, or the ones for which God decides not to change their hearts. So why does He just not do it for all, instead of just some? If being inexorably drawn to Him, and having your heart changed, makes it impossible not to follow, then just "zap" everyone.



Again, then maybe this is because the other 2/3's were inexorably drawn to Him, and the other 2/3's of their hearts were changed. Why not just do this to the last 1/3 as well? Answer... There is no sane reason. Once god intervenes upon their free will, which you stated God does, many replies ago, they will all perform God's desired outcome.



Right. And because He was inexorably drawn to Him, Satan was not successful.



This is false.

"Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me"

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. "

"I will give them a heart to know that I am the Lord, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart."


etc etc etc..................



This is false. You already agreed that God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him. You also already agreed that God changes hearts. Once these two things are done, by God, then your above statement will happen --- (every time, if this is actually what God wants/desires).

Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.
Okay, now you are just being silly.

If you agree God can BOTH 1) cause some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, and also 2) change hearts; then such individuals, who He has selected, will not fail in His desired requests.

Your above answer, again is complete nonsense; unless you now wish to redact what you agreed with prior. (i.e.)

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Because most hearts are haughty, filled with pride and refuse to change. God sees those hearts clearly. All have this heart within-Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it. Many let that heart rule their lives. It causes them to reason many false reasonings that they live in as truth.
It is clear that either:

A) You do not understand
B) You are playing games

Either way, I think we might be done here....

Its clear you do not understand. Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.
The "Chase" as I understand it was the Best Christian case for their beliefs, but the above is just excuses for Why God just doesn't do whatever is needed to save everyone. The excuse is to blame humans for what God seems unable to do because of the Bigot and blame shifter Jeremiah (or whoever) finding silly rules against marrying foreign wives to excuse a good man, one of Israel's greatest, if you believe it as history, being treated..frankly as though there wasn't a god there at all.

Like I said recently, these excuses may do for the Faithful to bat away doubt and question, but they are feeble apologetics against the real doubts that we have about the reliability of the Bible and and the validity of Christian doctrines.

You must have missed this-Deuteronomy 30:19--God set before all-LIFE or DEATH--its by our choice, by 5% lip service, 95% action.-- How many have even bothered listening to Jesus and learned EVERY utterance from God= FEW. They listen to the wrong teachers-2Cor 11:12-15--Those assure them-you are saved.
How can anyone take these claims seriously? I have had Bible apologists roll up on Forums swearing that God gives NO guarantees (even when He does) and that nobody can count on being saved. Even if we subscribed to anything the Bible claimed, the scattershot of varied assertions have me at least saying 'These people do not know what they're talking about'. I know what it is - they get their own ideas (or what they've had preached to them), think God is Inspiring them, and then dig something hardly relevant out of the Bible to present as though it was support. It's a ludicrous exhibition, chum and you really have to come up with something better.

I know, I know that too.....you are doing God's Work in preaching to the unbelievers and even if they don't listen, you will have earned brownie points with God..

Fine. You do what you feel you must. No problem for us :D I just go on record as saying that tossing faithclaims and snippits of Bibletext at us accomplishes nothing whatsoever. Just for information, as they say.

Best to learn all that Jesus taught. I have a thread -The real Jesus under Theology. Those 8 teachings clearly show who are his. This system is almost done. Dont miss out on entrance into Gods kingdom. This system life of 70-100 years is not worth throwing away trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years, never sick, never without, Not knowing bad anymore, not aging like now. continuous peace and harmony. etc, Gods kingdom is a cure all.
This just looks like desperate fingers -in -the ears preaching. it makes no argument, it presents no good evidence. It is no more than stuffing evangelical literature through my letter -box.

TRANSPONDER
Savant
Posts: 7960
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:05 am
Has thanked: 932 times
Been thanked: 3486 times

Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #298

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:46 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:18 pm+I think that, with an understanding of society, morals and the social instinct, we can do better and move from doing Right because we'll be punished if we don't, but doing it because it is better for us all.
You and I can. Everyone on this forum can. But to be frank I don't know if most people can. We live in a hypercompetitive society where if we don't cheat, don't screw one another over at every opportunity, we might not succeed, might not make money, might not reproduce.

That's aside from the fact that I'm not even making that claim. My claim is not that society needs religion (it well might, but I actually don't think it does) but that religious beliefs at least don't win you a Darwin award. In other words, they're safe. You believe this system, and you can continue to exist. It's proven. For all we know, modern belief systems will make society crumble, because they haven't been around for 2000 years. They're not proven.
I don't know whether we can do better, either. I only know that I see a way forward, I see the way the evidence looks and I see potential. I think we have to try, even if we fail. I think it starts here.

Online
kjw47
Under Probation
Posts: 1070
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:37 pm
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 88 times

Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #299

Post by kjw47 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:35 am
kjw47 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:13 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:28 pm
kjw47 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:14 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:06 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 7:35 pm
POI wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:19 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:16 pm
POI wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 4:59 pm
kjw47 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:46 am


Yes God will change hearts, but they can still fall. One must be serving the true God to get their heart changed-1 single religion-99% are false religions, those do not have God, it is satan posing as those gods. God draws the good hearts. 2Timothy 3 is todays hearts for 99%.
Okay, now you are just being silly.

If you agree God can BOTH 1) cause some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him, and also 2) change hearts; then such individuals, who He has selected, will not fail in His desired requests.

Your above answer, again is complete nonsense; unless you now wish to redact what you agreed with prior. (i.e.)

1) God causes some, and not others, to become inexorably drawn to Him.
2) God changes hearts

The take-away, yet again.... He apparently does this for some. Why not just do this for all?

Because most hearts are haughty, filled with pride and refuse to change. God sees those hearts clearly. All have this heart within-Jeremiah 17:9--The heart is treacherous and desperate, who can know it. Many let that heart rule their lives. It causes them to reason many false reasonings that they live in as truth.
It is clear that either:

A) You do not understand
B) You are playing games

Either way, I think we might be done here....

Its clear you do not understand. Solomon did everything God asked for years because of a good heart, but then threw aside a single statute-Do not marry foreign wives, but he did and fell to false god worship at his end. It does not say he repented of that. Peter a hand picked apostle denied knowing Jesus 3 x out of fear of men even after all he saw Jesus do, he fell, but he stood back up quickly. Same with King David, he did all that God commanded, but then cheated with Bathsheba and sent her husband to his death- a sin worthy of being stoned to death back then, but he repented and God forgave him, but was still punished for those acts. Any can fall, 1/3 of the angels, created perfect fell. So any can fall. If God knows its a waste of time for certain hearts why would he bother, Its adding bad association that could cause others to fall.
The "Chase" as I understand it was the Best Christian case for their beliefs, but the above is just excuses for Why God just doesn't do whatever is needed to save everyone. The excuse is to blame humans for what God seems unable to do because of the Bigot and blame shifter Jeremiah (or whoever) finding silly rules against marrying foreign wives to excuse a good man, one of Israel's greatest, if you believe it as history, being treated..frankly as though there wasn't a god there at all.

Like I said recently, these excuses may do for the Faithful to bat away doubt and question, but they are feeble apologetics against the real doubts that we have about the reliability of the Bible and and the validity of Christian doctrines.

You must have missed this-Deuteronomy 30:19--God set before all-LIFE or DEATH--its by our choice, by 5% lip service, 95% action.-- How many have even bothered listening to Jesus and learned EVERY utterance from God= FEW. They listen to the wrong teachers-2Cor 11:12-15--Those assure them-you are saved.
How can anyone take these claims seriously? I have had Bible apologists roll up on Forums swearing that God gives NO guarantees (even when He does) and that nobody can count on being saved. Even if we subscribed to anything the Bible claimed, the scattershot of varied assertions have me at least saying 'These people do not know what they're talking about'. I know what it is - they get their own ideas (or what they've had preached to them), think God is Inspiring them, and then dig something hardly relevant out of the Bible to present as though it was support. It's a ludicrous exhibition, chum and you really have to come up with something better.

I know, I know that too.....you are doing God's Work in preaching to the unbelievers and even if they don't listen, you will have earned brownie points with God..

Fine. You do what you feel you must. No problem for us :D I just go on record as saying that tossing faithclaims and snippits of Bibletext at us accomplishes nothing whatsoever. Just for information, as they say.

Best to learn all that Jesus taught. I have a thread -The real Jesus under Theology. Those 8 teachings clearly show who are his. This system is almost done. Dont miss out on entrance into Gods kingdom. This system life of 70-100 years is not worth throwing away trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years, never sick, never without, Not knowing bad anymore, not aging like now. continuous peace and harmony. etc, Gods kingdom is a cure all.
This just looks like desperate fingers -in -the ears preaching. it makes no argument, it presents no good evidence. It is no more than stuffing evangelical literature through my letter -box.

So then you are saying you will throw away eternal life for this miserable existence. Better enjoy your self while you can, its almost done. It will never get better. it will continue to get worse. In the last 2 weeks-8 major disasters on earth. Not to mention many places flooding or on fire. The food supply isnt so hot either because of all the heat and lack of water in many places.

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 5993
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6607 times
Been thanked: 3209 times

Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

Post #300

Post by brunumb »

kjw47 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:46 pm So then you are saying you will throw away eternal life for this miserable existence. Better enjoy your self while you can, its almost done. It will never get better. it will continue to get worse. In the last 2 weeks-8 major disasters on earth. Not to mention many places flooding or on fire. The food supply isnt so hot either because of all the heat and lack of water in many places.
Promises, promises. There is no eternal life. This existence is all we have. Life may be miserable but at least we have the internet. What can make the internet miserable is the endless onslaught of conspiracy theorists and peddlers of shonky religions we have to deal with where none of them can demonstrate the truth of what they claim.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

Post Reply