Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

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POI
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Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #1

Post by POI »

For many atheists, the go-to topic for debate, is "divine hiddenness". I do not see it spoke about much here? I figured it would be worthy of discussion. Below is a theist's response/rebuttal to the argument:



For Debate:

1. In claim #1, the theist states Abraham, Joseph, and Jesus have their requests ultimately fulfilled at a later date. Why do countless victims of rape, torture, AND murder go unfulfilled in their requests to be saved?

2. In claim #2, the theist states hiddenness does seem to promote a relationship in the long run. This is clearly not the case, as many will die as atheists -- (likely me, unless He is going to reveal Himself to me later in a way for which I will not doubt His mere existence).

3. In claim #3, God remains hidden from the ones who would rebel. I guess this means if I never feel I received His presence, then that means I would have rebelled anyways? Well then, should I ignore the Bible, where He presented Himself to many who reject Him then?

I'll stop here... The theist mentions other stuff, but nothing seemingly worthy of intellectual discussion.

I hope you theists can come up with BETTER reasons than the ones given in the video?

Or, in conclusion, apply Occam's Razor for the following question: Why doesn't God intervene, when prayed upon, where ultimate finite tragedy strikes?

A): Because God does not exist... One assumption

OR

B): God does exist, but.... Commence additional assumptions

******************************

A) needs only one assumption, B) needs more....
Last edited by POI on Fri Sep 16, 2022 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #111

Post by POI »

1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:36 am Doesn't every evil person die?
You are not addressing the question he is asking.
1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:36 am I think it is interesting question, what should be done to evil people.
Sure it's an interesting question. It's also an easily answerable question, for YOU. If "evil" means, (one who rapes and murders), then the answer is simple, at least for you... If you had the foreknowledge, or ability to stop such an 'evil' person, YOU would. So why doesn't God? I say this is an interesting question too. If such a god is said to both intervene, and is claimed to love his creation, He would logically stop it too. Hence, the answer here is simple. Assume He doesn't exist and be done with it.... Otherwise, continue presenting cognitive dissonance and special pleading.
1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:36 am For example it seems most people oppose death penalty for murder and adultery (which rape in many cases would be). Would it be good, if we would judge as Bible suggests? It would decrease many crimes + we would spare the money used for prisons.


You are making a completely different argument here. If God were to intervene, before the rape/murder could be carried out, then the person could not perform the rape/murder. Us humans don't lock people up, or sentence them to death for "thought crime'. Apparently, that's God's way. But even still, if YOU were to catch a rape in action, you already stated you would stop it. YOU do not have the foreknowledge to know what someone is planning to do, unless they tell you. Only 'god' knows apparently. But if you did know before-hand, you would intervene there as well. So why doesn't god?

If you, again, want to resort back to a 'free will' type of argument, you are merely replacing one set of problems, with another set. :)
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"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #112

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:33 am If there has been 1000 cases, is that enough reason to say it is still going and people are raped there?
You nave to wonder why God did nothing to prevent the rapes from reaching 1000 cases.
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Re: Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #113

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:36 am Doesn't every evil person die?
Sure, the evil stops when they die but the issue is that they do evil things while they are alive. God sees and knows and can intervene to help, but does nothing. Ordinary, loving and caring people given the opportunity would intervene and try to prevent it. God is guilty of depraved indifference.
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Re: Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #114

Post by 1213 »

brunumb wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:46 pm
1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:36 am Doesn't every evil person die?
Sure, the evil stops when they die but the issue is that they do evil things while they are alive. God sees and knows and can intervene to help, but does nothing....
God has given His law, has said that people should not do evil things. Because of that, I think it is dishonest and wrong to say He has not done anything.

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Re: Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #115

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:13 am
brunumb wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:46 pm
1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:36 am Doesn't every evil person die?
Sure, the evil stops when they die but the issue is that they do evil things while they are alive. God sees and knows and can intervene to help, but does nothing....
God has given His law, has said that people should not do evil things. Because of that, I think it is dishonest and wrong to say He has not done anything.
What is dishonest is misrepresenting another person's argument. We have been talking about God's direct intervention in preventing rape and murder. If you knew it was happening and you were in a position to directly intervene and help the victim, would you do it? Surely most decent human beings who cared for others would do whatever they could to help, particularly if someone was calling out for that help. God sees all and has the capability to intervene. Murders and rapes happen frequently. Making up laws is not helping. Why doesn't God do as much as any decent human being would do?
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Re: Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #116

Post by Clownboat »

1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:33 am If there has been 1000 cases, is that enough reason to say it is still going and people are raped there?
Yes.
I would need evidence for such accusation.
I don't care if you believe it. You wont even look into it yourself and I'm not here to spoon feed you.
And if you know it is true, what do you think should be done to it?
People that prey on children should be punished. Even if they are priests in a church!
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

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Re: Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #117

Post by POI »

Dear Christians.

I do not want to deprive any of you in providing your wisdom regarding this topic. Thus far, the vast majority of responses have overlapped with the 'problem of evil' argument. Option 1) seems to veer into that 'problem' as well.

Allow me to reiterate/recap/summarize/shorten the OP request. The Christian apologist, in the provided video, states the 'problem of divine hiddessness' in actually NOT a problem --> for (3) reasons:

!) God answers true requests on His time, not yours.
2) Remaining hidden, for a while, strengthens your future relationship.
3) God may not reveal Himself to one who He knows will rebel.

Feel free to choose any of the three above. Or, pick your own and explain. Let's solve this apparent "problem", which apparently is NOT a problem, together. Shall we?

Thank you in advance!
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #118

Post by JoeyKnothead »

brunumb wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:41 pm
1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:33 am If there has been 1000 cases, is that enough reason to say it is still going and people are raped there?
You have to wonder why God did nothing to prevent the rapes from reaching 1000 cases.
Maybe God has him a rape fetish, and we ain't supposed to kink shame?
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Re: Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #119

Post by 1213 »

Clownboat wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:42 pm
1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:33 am If there has been 1000 cases, is that enough reason to say it is still going and people are raped there?
Yes.
I would need evidence for such accusation.
I don't care if you believe it. You wont even look into it yourself and I'm not here to spoon feed you.
And if you know it is true, what do you think should be done to it?
People that prey on children should be punished. Even if they are priests in a church!
You say you know it happens all the time, but you don't care to do anything about. Instead you are here complaining. Why is that, why not do anything about it, why not prove it, if you know such atrocities happen right now?

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Re: Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

Post #120

Post by brunumb »

1213 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:35 am
Clownboat wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:42 pm
1213 wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:33 am If there has been 1000 cases, is that enough reason to say it is still going and people are raped there?
Yes.
I would need evidence for such accusation.
I don't care if you believe it. You wont even look into it yourself and I'm not here to spoon feed you.
And if you know it is true, what do you think should be done to it?
People that prey on children should be punished. Even if they are priests in a church!
You say you know it happens all the time, but you don't care to do anything about. Instead you are here complaining. Why is that, why not do anything about it, why not prove it, if you know such atrocities happen right now?
We have been over and over this question and you simply won't give an honest, straight forward answer.
WHY DOESN'T YOUR GOD DO ANYTHING?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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