I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Debating issues regarding sexuality

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InThePottersChamber
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I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #1

Post by InThePottersChamber »

Hi all

Firstly let me clarify, I am not homosexual. I became interested in figuring out if it is a sin or not because I find that gay people are smarter, kinder, and just really good and fun friends generally. I also know that a lot of them want to know God, but are afraid of being shunned by the church so they stay away. They also suffer from hate crimes and bullying, and it is this that make them kill themselves, not because they are 'spiritually dirty/disturbed', like a lot of Christians like to say.

I won't list down all the pro lgbtq theology, I'm sure we all are quite well versed in them, and if you aren't a quick google search can lead you to several articles and books that will inform you well enough. You can start with the infamous Matthew Vines, but there are also other authors whom I think are more convincing than him. I have to admit I've only read two books on this, and I'm sure I will be even more convinced if I took the time to read more, including non theology books about history and culture of the Greeks at the time the bible is set in.

But I will list down some points that I find particularly convincing.

1. What we know about gender through science, anthropology and sociology is that it is a very complicated thing. Our knowledge about the human body is very nascent, science has a long way to go. It is not just about what genitals you are born with, but also what goes on inside the brain. There may be infinitely more proofs that homosexual people are born the way they are, whether in chromosomes, genes, or otherwise.
1a. When Jesus said marriage was between a man and a woman, what if science discovers one day something new about why some women are more 'manly', others are more 'womanly', it is a spectrum, what if Jesus meant something more than what genitals we are born with?

2. The word, concept and understanding of Homosexuality was coined by the Germans, but they didn't use the term in the bible until recently, and it is only because this new version was sponsored by an American company.

3. The word arsenokoitai was a new word coined by A. Paul, and it was sandwiched between two other words which meant male prostitute and male pimp respectively, so most likely it meant men who bought male prostitutes, or men who indulged in homosexual sex outside of a loving and committed relationship. Heterosexuals are also not allowed to indulge in sex outside of a loving and committed relationship.

4. The bible never addressed issues about intersex people, does that mean that these people are sinful too because some of them have two reproductive organs and they can choose, in most cases, which gender they want to live as?

5. I don't believe Ruth and Naomi, or David and Jonathan were homosexuals, like many pro lgbtq proponents claim, but that doesn't mean a lot of their points aren't valid. the conservative church disagrees on many small things, but overall it agrees about the same values. Doesn't mean they are different religions or that they need to separate from one another, or that the whole religion of Christianity is fake.

The bible has been used to justify and even support slavery, racism, racial segregation, and the oppression of women and the poor. Isn't this history repeating itself, but this time to a different type of minority?

Extra points I would like to add are: A lot of people can detect a homosexual among heterosexuals, much like the way we can tell a man from a woman. Isn't this extra proof that they're to an extent born that way? It's like we know Christianity isn't a schizophrenic's fantasy because every Christian believes and experiences roughly the same thing.

Some people say, well, even homosexuals know they are sinful. To this I'd like to share an experience I had with a lesbian friend. She one day told me, "I know I am sinful because when I think of marrying a man I don't feel desperate and heartbroken, but when I think of marrying a woman I feel like I'm in a dark desperate place, I really really want it." For me, at that time, that was to me, solid proof, in fact, THE proof that homosexuality was sinful. For some background info, I've always told this friend every time we met that her sexual orientation was sinful and encouraged her to overcome it through prayer and fasting. But when I prayed for discernment, I immediately realised: Of course she wouldn't feel desperate for a marriage to a man. She wasn't attracted to them. Of course she would feel desperate when she thought about women, she was attracted to them. a LOT of people who are attracted to the opposite sex feel the same way my lesbian friend feels, desperate because they don't think they can attract a spouse, but it doesn't mean God is calling them to turn homosexual.

I prayed for wisdom and discernment for a very long time before I came to the conclusion that homosexuality isn't a sin. For a long time I believed strongly it was a sin, but the evidence against that belief is just too damning.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #11

Post by InThePottersChamber »

[Replying to Miles in post #10]

I won't answer that question because it is a logically fallacy. I already stated in my arguments that I believe my God doesn't condemn homosexuality so why are you asking me if I think my opinion is more important than my God's, assuming that we have different views on the topic?

About Leviticus, here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/opin ... y-sex.html
This is just one view, there are others if you actually care to search (obviously you don't, because you can't even refute my arguments, and thus rely on logical fallacy and lazy arguments, simply quoting a TRANSLATED version of the bible). Your ignorance shows that you yourself know little about theology and how bibles are translated.

Again, about Kathy Baldock, first of all you didn't even get her name right. And your point proves further that your prowess of research leaves much to be desired, or else you would have found out that she is an engineering graduate. This means she has been trained before in university, and knows what research entails. She also has a research partner and he is more well informed than her by your standards. He is Ed Oxford, who graduated from theology school and specialises in researching many aspects of the bible.

Please stop replying to this thread. You are obviously extremely ill informed and I don't know if it is by choice or not.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #12

Post by brunumb »

InThePottersChamber wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:08 am About Leviticus, here:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/21/opin ... y-sex.html
This is just one view, there are others if you actually care to search (obviously you don't, because you can't even refute my arguments, and thus rely on logical fallacy and lazy arguments, simply quoting a TRANSLATED version of the bible). Your ignorance shows that you yourself know little about theology and how bibles are translated.
(Link inaccessible)

Please demonstrate that your version/translation/interpretation or whatever of the Bible is the correct one. Otherwise all we have is just another opinion in the mix. What you believe is irrelevant.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #13

Post by InThePottersChamber »

[Replying to brunumb in post #12]

By your logic, your opinion is also just another opinion. I have admitted I've only read two books on this, and know very little. But what little I know has been enough to convince me about my stance. If you really desire to know the truth, you'd be able to find online or in books what you seek to know. The points that I listed are facts, not opinions. I don't know why this post has heretofore only attracted people who are so bias and lazy. If anyone can refute just one of the points that I listed then let's talk, if not, I'm not going to reply anyone on here any longer.

If you can't access the link maybe you can pay for subscription. You'll be able to access it then.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #14

Post by Miles »

InThePottersChamber wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:08 am [Replying to Miles in post #10]

I won't answer that question because it is a logically fallacy. I already stated in my arguments that I believe my God doesn't condemn homosexuality so why are you asking me if I think my opinion is more important than my God's, assuming that we have different views on the topic?
Because I've presented evidence that god does, in fact, hold that homosexual sex is a sin, and you've presented no evidence whatsoever that he believes otherwise. Mere points that you find particularly convincing are hardly an argument. So I await a true counter argument from you: Simply cite one Bible verse showing god does not think homosexuality is a sin.

Sorry but there's a paywall that I'm not about to shell out for.

This is just one view, there are others if you actually care to search (obviously you don't, because you can't even refute my arguments, and thus rely on logical fallacy and lazy arguments, simply quoting a TRANSLATED version of the bible). Your ignorance shows that you yourself know little about theology and how bibles are translated.
Your so-called arguments, or "points that I find particularly convincing" as you call them, while perhaps convincing to you don't merit a response. Heck, they aren't even interesting. Hence my passing them by.

Again, about Kathy Baldock, first of all you didn't even get her name right. And your point proves further that your prowess of research leaves much to be desired, or else you would have found out that she is an .
Well, the other day I did find that she's an "engineer by trade," however, that does not mean she's an engineering graduate. It could very well mean she's a locomotive engineer. Truly. And even if she is an engineering graduate, the degree has absolutely no more relevance to theology and god's view of homosexual sex than does a degree in home economics.

She also has a research partner and he is more well informed than her by your standards. He is Ed Oxford, who graduated from theology school and specialises in researching many aspects of the bible.
So what? I'm not talking about her partner who doesn't even appear in your video. And I fail to see any relevance to what he may know and to what Bible asserts in Leviticus 20:13. Leviticus 20:13 reads just about the same in every one of the 54 Bibles I checked---god's mandate is death for gay sex. In any case, it did nothing to help Baldock present a convincing case for god's tolerance of homosexual sex.

Please stop replying to this thread. You are obviously extremely ill informed and I don't know if it is by choice or not.
No. I will reply to whatever thread I care to and as I please. :mrgreen:

HOWEVER, I will move on if you can cite a Bible verse showing that god does not hold homosexuality to be a sin. If what you say is true this should be easy-peasy, otherwise, I await your next post.

Ciao

.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #15

Post by benchwarmer »

[Replying to InThePottersChamber in post #1]

I'm glad you don't think homosexuality is a 'sin'. That's progress for a practicing Christian. However, it also means that you are conveniently ignoring parts of your scripture.

Given that the only 'evidence' we have of what the god in the Bible wants is what is written in the Bible, one cannot simply dismiss/ignore the inconvenient bits. I call this 'cafeteria Christianity' where all the things progressive, modern humans consider immoral (rape/murder/slavery) are quietly swept under the carpet hoping nobody notices the bulge. Sadly, the bulge is obvious to those that have actually read the entire Bible.

As an ex Christian, I can say that one of the things (among many) that led to my ultimate deconversion is the obvious disconnect between a God that supposedly loves all, yet has scripture that contradicts this in so many places.

I say, don't stop here, keep searching your heart and learning what is really in the foundation of your religion. If you can square away what's really in your heart with EVERYTHING that the god in the Bible demands/desires/agrees with, then you can be confident that remaining a Christian is the right choice. If on the other hand you can no longer believe an actual loving god would consent to some of the obvious problems in the Bible, then welcome to the other side.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #16

Post by AgnosticBoy »

InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 am Hi all

Firstly let me clarify, I am not homosexual. I became interested in figuring out if it is a sin or not because I find that gay people are smarter, kinder, and just really good and fun friends generally. I also know that a lot of them want to know God, but are afraid of being shunned by the church so they stay away. They also suffer from hate crimes and bullying, and it is this that make them kill themselves, not because they are 'spiritually dirty/disturbed', like a lot of Christians like to say.

I won't list down all the pro lgbtq theology, I'm sure we all are quite well versed in them, and if you aren't a quick google search can lead you to several articles and books that will inform you well enough. You can start with the infamous Matthew Vines, but there are also other authors whom I think are more convincing than him. I have to admit I've only read two books on this, and I'm sure I will be even more convinced if I took the time to read more, including non theology books about history and culture of the Greeks at the time the bible is set in.

But I will list down some points that I find particularly convincing.

1. What we know about gender through science, anthropology and sociology is that it is a very complicated thing. Our knowledge about the human body is very nascent, science has a long way to go. It is not just about what genitals you are born with, but also what goes on inside the brain. There may be infinitely more proofs that homosexual people are born the way they are, whether in chromosomes, genes, or otherwise.
1a. When Jesus said marriage was between a man and a woman, what if science discovers one day something new about why some women are more 'manly', others are more 'womanly', it is a spectrum, what if Jesus meant something more than what genitals we are born with?

2. The word, concept and understanding of Homosexuality was coined by the Germans, but they didn't use the term in the bible until recently, and it is only because this new version was sponsored by an American company.

3. The word arsenokoitai was a new word coined by A. Paul, and it was sandwiched between two other words which meant male prostitute and male pimp respectively, so most likely it meant men who bought male prostitutes, or men who indulged in homosexual sex outside of a loving and committed relationship. Heterosexuals are also not allowed to indulge in sex outside of a loving and committed relationship.

4. The bible never addressed issues about intersex people, does that mean that these people are sinful too because some of them have two reproductive organs and they can choose, in most cases, which gender they want to live as?

5. I don't believe Ruth and Naomi, or David and Jonathan were homosexuals, like many pro lgbtq proponents claim, but that doesn't mean a lot of their points aren't valid. the conservative church disagrees on many small things, but overall it agrees about the same values. Doesn't mean they are different religions or that they need to separate from one another, or that the whole religion of Christianity is fake.

The bible has been used to justify and even support slavery, racism, racial segregation, and the oppression of women and the poor. Isn't this history repeating itself, but this time to a different type of minority?

Extra points I would like to add are: A lot of people can detect a homosexual among heterosexuals, much like the way we can tell a man from a woman. Isn't this extra proof that they're to an extent born that way? It's like we know Christianity isn't a schizophrenic's fantasy because every Christian believes and experiences roughly the same thing.
Even if I grant you all of your points, does the Bible say that same-sex romantic relations are good? Is there any logic and evidence to show that they would've been okay with it? I ask this because without positive arguments, your points could also mean that the Bible doesn't address same-sex relations outside of prostitution. If it's silent on same-sex acts in that context, then drawing a conclusion on that scenario is a fallacy, i.e. an argument from silence.
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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #17

Post by collin88x »

benchwarmer wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:28 pm [Replying to InThePottersChamber in post #1]

I'm glad you don't think homosexuality is a 'sin'. That's progress for a practicing Christian. However, it also means that you are conveniently ignoring parts of your scripture.

Given that the only 'evidence' we have of what the god in the Bible wants is what is written in the Bible, one cannot simply dismiss/ignore the inconvenient bits. I call this 'cafeteria Christianity' where all the things progressive, modern humans consider immoral (rape/murder/slavery) are quietly swept under the carpet hoping nobody notices the bulge. Sadly, the bulge is obvious to those that have actually read the entire Bible.

As an ex Christian, I can say that one of the things (among many) that led to my ultimate deconversion is the obvious disconnect between a God that supposedly loves all, yet has scripture that contradicts this in so many places.

I say, don't stop here, keep searching your heart and learning what is really in the foundation of your religion. If you can square away what's really in your heart with EVERYTHING that the god in the Bible demands/desires/agrees with, then you can be confident that remaining a Christian is the right choice. If on the other hand you can no longer believe an actual loving god would consent to some of the obvious problems in the Bible, then welcome to the other side.
God doesn't love all. He only loves Israel. God never contradicts. You just were taught the Bible very wrong.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #18

Post by Purple Knight »

InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 am1. What we know about gender through science, anthropology and sociology is that it is a very complicated thing. Our knowledge about the human body is very nascent, science has a long way to go. It is not just about what genitals you are born with, but also what goes on inside the brain. There may be infinitely more proofs that homosexual people are born the way they are, whether in chromosomes, genes, or otherwise.
1a. When Jesus said marriage was between a man and a woman, what if science discovers one day something new about why some women are more 'manly', others are more 'womanly', it is a spectrum, what if Jesus meant something more than what genitals we are born with?
I am not religious, but to me, Biblically it very much all seems to be about function, so if science can make what would otherwise be called into a man into a woman, functionally - if you can then be fruitful and multiply - I don't see how the Bible condemns it anymore. The Bible has primitive understanding and doesn't care what you identify as. It's only looking at function. It's utterly blind to transgenderism and that's a good thing, because if you have the function of a female then you are a female and a man lying with you is not "lying with a man as a woman." In other words, make babies. If you're doing that you're not doing wrong.

I think what the Bible intends is for a child to be the product of both its parents' DNA, so that both will have an investment in it and love and care for it. Things like homosexuality and prostitution are extraneous to that true end of sex; pure pleasure divorced from the responsibility tie-in to do what billions of generations did to make you and pay that forward by reproducing.

So my personal opinion would be, yes to the question you seem to be asking: Yes, science advancing can chance the basics of right and wrong here. Very very big but though: It has to change enough so that you can have a baby doing what you're doing.

However, this day seems not to be far off.

https://www.science.org/content/article ... wo-mothers
InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 am2. The word, concept and understanding of Homosexuality was coined by the Germans, but they didn't use the term in the bible until recently, and it is only because this new version was sponsored by an American company.

3. The word arsenokoitai was a new word coined by A. Paul, and it was sandwiched between two other words which meant male prostitute and male pimp respectively, so most likely it meant men who bought male prostitutes, or men who indulged in homosexual sex outside of a loving and committed relationship. Heterosexuals are also not allowed to indulge in sex outside of a loving and committed relationship.
I don't agree with this being Biblical. Do not lie with a man as with a woman is pretty clear. However, it says nothing about what women do with one another. The Bible gives dominion to the males and expects them to be responsible in turn. They choose when a baby gets made, and it's their responsibility to choose yes it gets made enough to prevent their society from falling below replacement levels.
InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 am4. The bible never addressed issues about intersex people, does that mean that these people are sinful too because some of them have two reproductive organs and they can choose, in most cases, which gender they want to live as?
Functional hermaphrodism is rare. I would say Biblically, choosing to live as a woman includes being the biological mother of a child, and choosing to live as a man means being its father. Again this is just my personal opinion, but it's based on the why of no gay sex being that it doesn't make babies, which I think is well justified.
InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 amExtra points I would like to add are: A lot of people can detect a homosexual among heterosexuals, much like the way we can tell a man from a woman. Isn't this extra proof that they're to an extent born that way?
Sure, but when you're talking Christianity you're talking good and evil, not do-whatever-you-want-because-it's-your-nature. People can detect a creep too, but that doesn't mean he should still be a creep. He should reform and not be a creep, and people will still detect him because he was born with that nature, but they will detect wrong.

In other words, if the act is really wrong, being born with the inclination to engage in it is no excuse to engage in it.

Christianity says we were all born with a sinful nature and should overcome it. Modern morality says that if you're born with a certain nature it can't be sinful or wrong. I'm going to be unkind here because the truth is unkind: You can't shoehorn one into the other. They're both fine choices, but you need to pick one.
InThePottersChamber wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:50 amSome people say, well, even homosexuals know they are sinful. To this I'd like to share an experience I had with a lesbian friend. She one day told me, "I know I am sinful because when I think of marrying a man I don't feel desperate and heartbroken, but when I think of marrying a woman I feel like I'm in a dark desperate place, I really really want it." For me, at that time, that was to me, solid proof, in fact, THE proof that homosexuality was sinful. For some background info, I've always told this friend every time we met that her sexual orientation was sinful and encouraged her to overcome it through prayer and fasting. But when I prayed for discernment, I immediately realised: Of course she wouldn't feel desperate for a marriage to a man. She wasn't attracted to them. Of course she would feel desperate when she thought about women, she was attracted to them. a LOT of people who are attracted to the opposite sex feel the same way my lesbian friend feels, desperate because they don't think they can attract a spouse, but it doesn't mean God is calling them to turn homosexual.

I prayed for wisdom and discernment for a very long time before I came to the conclusion that homosexuality isn't a sin. For a long time I believed strongly it was a sin, but the evidence against that belief is just too damning.
The Bible does not say female homosexuality is sinful. If it does lump male and female homosexuality together later than Deuteronomy this is where you may be right about a word being mistranslated.

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #19

Post by benchwarmer »

collin88x wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:57 am
God doesn't love all. He only loves Israel. God never contradicts. You just were taught the Bible very wrong.
Apparently we are reading different Bibles. That's actually another issue, but for now, I'm assuming the Christian Bible as read by protestants (as it includes the common books with the Catholics).

NOTE: The following are from https://www.biblegateway.com/ using the NIV version. Bolding is mine.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Now, you bring up a fair point in a way. The Bible also says:
Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.
i.e. He apparently really only loves those who love him back.

Of course we know the Old Testament is aimed at Israel, but unless the Bible your talking about is missing the New Testament, I think maybe you might have some more learning to do.

Note this is coming from an atheist. You can believe whatever you like, but when you make statements that are contradicted by the very thing you brought up, that's an issue :)

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Re: I Don't Think Homosexuality Is A Sin

Post #20

Post by Miles »

collin88x wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:57 am
benchwarmer wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:28 pm [Replying to InThePottersChamber in post #1]

I'm glad you don't think homosexuality is a 'sin'. That's progress for a practicing Christian. However, it also means that you are conveniently ignoring parts of your scripture.

Given that the only 'evidence' we have of what the god in the Bible wants is what is written in the Bible, one cannot simply dismiss/ignore the inconvenient bits. I call this 'cafeteria Christianity' where all the things progressive, modern humans consider immoral (rape/murder/slavery) are quietly swept under the carpet hoping nobody notices the bulge. Sadly, the bulge is obvious to those that have actually read the entire Bible.

As an ex Christian, I can say that one of the things (among many) that led to my ultimate deconversion is the obvious disconnect between a God that supposedly loves all, yet has scripture that contradicts this in so many places.

I say, don't stop here, keep searching your heart and learning what is really in the foundation of your religion. If you can square away what's really in your heart with EVERYTHING that the god in the Bible demands/desires/agrees with, then you can be confident that remaining a Christian is the right choice. If on the other hand you can no longer believe an actual loving god would consent to some of the obvious problems in the Bible, then welcome to the other side.
God doesn't love all. He only loves Israel. God never contradicts. You just were taught the Bible very wrong.

Punishing Crime

“The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…” — Ezekiel 18:20

VERSES

“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” — Exodus 20:5

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Incest

“Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother…” — Deuteronomy 27:22
“And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter…it is a wicked thing….” — Leviticus 20:17

VERSES

11 Then Abraham said, “I thought no one in this place respected God. I thought someone would kill me to get Sarah. 12 She is my wife, but she is also my sister. She is the daughter of my father but not the daughter of my mother. — Genesis 20:11-12
“And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife…I bless her, and give thee a son also of her…” — Genesis 17:15-16


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