Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!

[POI]

Dear Christians of all flavor(s),

I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?

It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".

That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.

I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.

For Debate:

Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?

[kjw47]

So then you are saying you will throw away eternal life for this miserable existence. Better enjoy your self while you can, its almost done. It will never get better. it will continue to get worse. In the last 2 weeks-8 major disasters on earth. Not to mention many places flooding or on fire. The food supply isnt so hot either because of all the heat and lack of water in many places.

Promises, promises. There is no eternal life. This existence is all we have. Life may be miserable but at least we have the internet. What can make the internet miserable is the endless onslaught of conspiracy theorists and peddlers of shonky religions we have to deal with where none of them can demonstrate the truth of what they claim.

The bible has proved true. Many prophecys have come to pass written centuries before.

[brunumb]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #301]

I would like to give due credit to the author of the following, but unfortunately I am unable to identify the source at this time. Nevertheless I am in agreement with the sentiments they have expressed.

BIBLICAL PROPHESY IS A MYTH

The truth of prophecy in the Bible has been refuted over and over again. In fact this was put to rest well over two hundred years ago when Thomas Paine wrote "Examination of the Prophecies", which completely destroyed the notion that the Bible was full of fulfilled prophecies.

http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... ecies.html

Saying things like "the Bible is full of PROPHECIES fulfilled" will only earn you snickers from any intelligent, informed reader and will lead to no one taking your viewpoint seriously. In fact, the argument from prophecy is so untenable in the light of both Paine's work and basic common sense that there are only four possible reasons a person would seriously attempt to use it in a discussion:

1. The person is woefully unaware of the falsifying evidence against messianic prophecy, indicating that they possess a lack of education that is going to ill serve them in debates with reasonably well-informed opponents.

2. The person is aware of the falsifying evidence against messianic prophecy, but dishonestly continues to use it in argument in the hope that their audience is the type of person described in #1.

3. The person is aware of the falsifying evidence against messianic prophecy, but has deluded themselves by a number of nonsensical rationalizations into believing that messianic prophecy is nonetheless still a valid doctrine. These rationalizations mainly consist of insisting that Old Testament writers were really writing about the coming of Christ when they appeared to be writing about a completely different situation; or that Christ really did fulfill an Old Testament prophecy even when the prophecy specifies things he did not do or attributes he did not have.

4. The person is hindered by a childlike faith and belief in a doctrine such as messianic prophecy which sadly prohibits them from possessing the higher reasoning and critical thinking faculties necessary to comprehend the falsifying evidence against that doctrine.

[POI]

I know 100% God exists. Everything everyone has is because of God. They owe him everything. But then there are ones like you living in darkness and refuse to listen to truth. And do not want to admit God is there. Most want to continue in sin.

Here's what I know... When a debate opponent knows they have lost, they will generally respond in one of three ways:

1) Ad hominem attack(s) <- You have just done this here
2) Not respond to what has been asked <- You've also done that a lot, both in this thread and others.
3) Change the subject <- You've done both A) and C) in this response alone.

I will present my argument again. Please try and stay focused here:

Since you like to throw out Verses, here's some:

Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23. So again, either:

A) You did not pray for me, which would be quite curious...
B) You did, and God ignored you, even though being inexorably drawn and changing hearts imposes upon my will. And you already agreed that God does do this for some.
C) Your claimed god likely does not exist. But, I already know I cannot prove the unfalsifiable....

[POI]

They listen to the wrong teachers.

How do you know this is not you? I've read the same Bible you have. I really do not listen to any 'teacher'.

Do you really need a teacher, or, can you read and comprehend it for yourself?

Some of the bible can easily be understood, some of it cannot and one must be taught by the teachers who have Jesus, only those have truth. How do i know--Those 8 teachings from Jesus under--The real Jesus in Theology, shows clearly who are his. I have been kicked out of at least 6 trinity run sights for showing them those truths. The usual answers back is--Jesus didnt teach those things. Yet every single one of those teachings is in every translation on earth. Trinity religions teach little of what Jesus actually teaches. They assure the followers they are saved, so few bother to learn and obey Jesus. It takes effort.

Reading many large books takes effort. I have put in the effort. I was a Christian for decades. I see this book as presenting the ultimate divide between <emotional thinking (vs) logical thinking>. For a great many, the former wins. If it does, it becomes much easier to 'navigate' this book.

And just so you know, it would be quite easy for me, as well, to blankly assert that "the devil is controlling your thoughts, and you are under the power of the wrong teachers." But then, I too, would seem silly and irrational. Please note that making baseless claims, as you continue to do, does absolutely nothing in a debate.

I'm merely asking for you to demonstrate the existence of such a god. I'm asking for your prayer, so he can present himself to me. Are you going to do that, or not?

At the end of the day, the last bastion of doubt came from the problem of divine hiddenness. I'm asking you to demonstrate otherwise. If you fail, then I can only assume what I told you in the other response....

A) You did not pray for me, which would be odd....
B) God ignored you, even thought he has been said to change hearts and cause some to become inexorably drawn to him. Also, it defies many verses in the Bible about prayer.
C) He likely is not there to respond....

C) entails the least amount of additional assumption(s).

[kjw47]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #301]

I would like to give due credit to the author of the following, but unfortunately I am unable to identify the source at this time. Nevertheless I am in agreement with the sentiments they have expressed.

BIBLICAL PROPHESY IS A MYTH

The truth of prophecy in the Bible has been refuted over and over again. In fact this was put to rest well over two hundred years ago when Thomas Paine wrote "Examination of the Prophecies", which completely destroyed the notion that the Bible was full of fulfilled prophecies.

http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... ecies.html

Saying things like "the Bible is full of PROPHECIES fulfilled" will only earn you snickers from any intelligent, informed reader and will lead to no one taking your viewpoint seriously. In fact, the argument from prophecy is so untenable in the light of both Paine's work and basic common sense that there are only four possible reasons a person would seriously attempt to use it in a discussion:

1. The person is woefully unaware of the falsifying evidence against messianic prophecy, indicating that they possess a lack of education that is going to ill serve them in debates with reasonably well-informed opponents.

2. The person is aware of the falsifying evidence against messianic prophecy, but dishonestly continues to use it in argument in the hope that their audience is the type of person described in #1.

3. The person is aware of the falsifying evidence against messianic prophecy, but has deluded themselves by a number of nonsensical rationalizations into believing that messianic prophecy is nonetheless still a valid doctrine. These rationalizations mainly consist of insisting that Old Testament writers were really writing about the coming of Christ when they appeared to be writing about a completely different situation; or that Christ really did fulfill an Old Testament prophecy even when the prophecy specifies things he did not do or attributes he did not have.

4. The person is hindered by a childlike faith and belief in a doctrine such as messianic prophecy which sadly prohibits them from possessing the higher reasoning and critical thinking faculties necessary to comprehend the falsifying evidence against that doctrine.

The darkness supports the darkness

[kjw47]

They listen to the wrong teachers.

How do you know this is not you? I've read the same Bible you have. I really do not listen to any 'teacher'.

Do you really need a teacher, or, can you read and comprehend it for yourself?

Some of the bible can easily be understood, some of it cannot and one must be taught by the teachers who have Jesus, only those have truth. How do i know--Those 8 teachings from Jesus under--The real Jesus in Theology, shows clearly who are his. I have been kicked out of at least 6 trinity run sights for showing them those truths. The usual answers back is--Jesus didnt teach those things. Yet every single one of those teachings is in every translation on earth. Trinity religions teach little of what Jesus actually teaches. They assure the followers they are saved, so few bother to learn and obey Jesus. It takes effort.

Reading many large books takes effort. I have put in the effort. I was a Christian for decades. I see this book as presenting the ultimate divide between <emotional thinking (vs) logical thinking>. For a great many, the former wins. If it does, it becomes much easier to 'navigate' this book.

And just so you know, it would be quite easy for me, as well, to blankly assert that "the devil is controlling your thoughts, and you are under the power of the wrong teachers." But then, I too, would seem silly and irrational. Please note that making baseless claims, as you continue to do, does absolutely nothing in a debate.

I'm merely asking for you to demonstrate the existence of such a god. I'm asking for your prayer, so he can present himself to me. Are you going to do that, or not?

At the end of the day, the last bastion of doubt came from the problem of divine hiddenness. I'm asking you to demonstrate otherwise. If you fail, then I can only assume what I told you in the other response....

A) You did not pray for me, which would be odd....
B) God ignored you, even thought he has been said to change hearts and cause some to become inexorably drawn to him. Also, it defies many verses in the Bible about prayer.
C) He likely is not there to respond....

C) entails the least amount of additional assumption(s).

Contrary to your belief, you attended false religion, Jesus has 0 to do with them, So you were taught darkness. No one can show you God, but God. God treats one as a Friend if they show him love and respect. Those saying his word is false is doing the opposite, so no matter who prayed for you it wouldnt be Gods will to show you. God gave you everything, you show him first.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #306]

This is nothing but faith -claims and preaching. You believe it; we get that, and you are free to believe it, but your accusations of us being in darkness are going to get you nowhere, not on this Forum. Poi has said that he knows his Bible; he used to be a Christian and believed it. i never was nor did, but I have come to know the Bible (or the bits that really matter, such as the Gospels) pretty well, and I have good reason to believe that they are not telling the truth.
Insisting that we are in darkness and the reasons we give for not believing are darkness upon darkness is not doing the chase. It is refused to run and claiming that you win by default.

[POI]

Contrary to your belief, you attended false religion, Jesus has 0 to do with them, So you were taught darkness.

More blank assertions. Kool. You have absolutely NO idea from where I come from, and where I've been, but thank-you-all-the-same for the continued ad hominem attacks

No one can show you God, but God.

So God does NOT answer intercessory prayers, even from a true believer like yourself?

God treats one as a Friend if they show him love and respect.

I was a Christian for 30+ years, but realized I was likely talking to myself. If He knows I'm trying to reach Him, why does He continue to play hide-and-go-seek? That does not sound very loving and respectful, does it?

Those saying his word is false is doing the opposite, so no matter who prayed for you it wouldnt be Gods will to show you. God gave you everything, you show him first.

Again, you can state I'm doing it ALL wrong. But you think you are doing it all right. So I ask you again, DOES GOD EVER ANSWER INTERCESSORY PRAYERS, FROM TRUE BELIEVERS, OR NOT? If NOT, then your Bible is wrong. If He does, then I'll be awaiting your prayer, on my behalf.

This is your shinning moment to bring a lost soul back to Christ.

[kjw47]

[Replying to kjw47 in post #306]

This is nothing but faith -claims and preaching. You believe it; we get that, and you are free to believe it, but your accusations of us being in darkness are going to get you nowhere, not on this Forum. Poi has said that he knows his Bible; he used to be a Christian and believed it. i never was nor did, but I have come to know the Bible (or the bits that really matter, such as the Gospels) pretty well, and I have good reason to believe that they are not telling the truth.
Insisting that we are in darkness and the reasons we give for not believing are darkness upon darkness is not doing the chase. It is refused to run and claiming that you win by default.

Many think they have satan beat-99.9% mislead in Noahs day--Jesus compared these last days to Noahs day- Luke 17:26--at minimum 99% are in darkness.

[kjw47]

Contrary to your belief, you attended false religion, Jesus has 0 to do with them, So you were taught darkness.

More blank assertions. Kool. You have absolutely NO idea from where I come from, and where I've been, but thank-you-all-the-same for the continued ad hominem attacks

No one can show you God, but God.

So God does NOT answer intercessory prayers, even from a true believer like yourself?

God treats one as a Friend if they show him love and respect.

I was a Christian for 30+ years, but realized I was likely talking to myself. If He knows I'm trying to reach Him, why does He continue to play hide-and-go-seek? That does not sound very loving and respectful, does it?

Those saying his word is false is doing the opposite, so no matter who prayed for you it wouldnt be Gods will to show you. God gave you everything, you show him first.

Again, you can state I'm doing it ALL wrong. But you think you are doing it all right. So I ask you again, DOES GOD EVER ANSWER INTERCESSORY PRAYERS, FROM TRUE BELIEVERS, OR NOT? If NOT, then your Bible is wrong. If He does, then I'll be awaiting your prayer, on my behalf.

This is your shinning moment to bring a lost soul back to Christ.

You think you were a christian, were told were a christian, but according to the teachings of Jesus you werent. How many days of your christianity did you listen to Jesus and do this first daily? Matt 6:33--Therefore keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his(YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)--How many days did your heart instruct your mind to put those 2 things over-Job, Family, Friends, entertainment? I already know the answer, Those in the light do it first daily. 24/7-365.