Do Atheists Have a Solid Case Here?

[POI]

For many atheists, the go-to topic for debate, is "divine hiddenness". I do not see it spoke about much here? I figured it would be worthy of discussion. Below is a theist's response/rebuttal to the argument:



For Debate:

1. In claim #1, the theist states Abraham, Joseph, and Jesus have their requests ultimately fulfilled at a later date. Why do countless victims of rape, torture, AND murder go unfulfilled in their requests to be saved?

2. In claim #2, the theist states hiddenness does seem to promote a relationship in the long run. This is clearly not the case, as many will die as atheists -- (likely me, unless He is going to reveal Himself to me later in a way for which I will not doubt His mere existence).

3. In claim #3, God remains hidden from the ones who would rebel. I guess this means if I never feel I received His presence, then that means I would have rebelled anyways? Well then, should I ignore the Bible, where He presented Himself to many who reject Him then?

I'll stop here... The theist mentions other stuff, but nothing seemingly worthy of intellectual discussion.

I hope you theists can come up with BETTER reasons than the ones given in the video?

Or, in conclusion, apply Occam's Razor for the following question: Why doesn't God intervene, when prayed upon, where ultimate finite tragedy strikes?

A): Because God does not exist... One assumption

OR

B): God does exist, but.... Commence additional assumptions

******************************

A) needs only one assumption, B) needs more....

[Clownboat]

You say you know it happens all the time,

We all know it happens. I even showed evidence for over 1,000 cases in one state alone. Why are you pretending that it doesn't happen?

but you don't care to do anything about.

I have stopped every single case of rape that I have come across. Shame on you!

Instead you are here complaining.

Not instead. I am 'also' here complaining about child predators.

Why is that, why not do anything about it,

Just how much wrong are you trying to include in one post? Trying to set records?

why not prove it, if you know such atrocities happen right now?

I have, in this thread in fact, for those that care about such things. You seem to prefer to defend the child abusers by playing dumb it seems.

There really is one question you should answer:
Why does your God not do anything?

[TRANSPONDER]

If there has been 1000 cases, is that enough reason to say it is still going and people are raped there?

Yes.

I would need evidence for such accusation.

I don't care if you believe it. You wont even look into it yourself and I'm not here to spoon feed you.

And if you know it is true, what do you think should be done to it?

People that prey on children should be punished. Even if they are priests in a church!

You say you know it happens all the time, but you don't care to do anything about. Instead you are here complaining. Why is that, why not do anything about it, why not prove it, if you know such atrocities happen right now?

How often I find myself saying this, when theist apologetics gets boxed in and starts going denialist. You are not looking good by denying that Bad Stuff is going on. Open a newspaper, turn on the TV. There's murder and rape going on in my town where nobody even gets out of bed before midday. You are making yourself and your religion look foolish by asking for proof of what is right in front of all our faces.

Ok...I'm going to have to do this for you as you'll be standing there, arms tightfolded like a manhating Karen, saying you don't have to agree with anything I say. The question is not whether bad stuff happens, IT HAPPENS, but why God simply doesn't step in and sort it. There are more excuses than you'd need to sink a Nimitz class carrier. But are they valid? Would it really be unworkable for God to come and sort it out? Does it make sense that this is all part of a divine plan? Is God actually sorting it out but in such a subtle way, as to be unprovable, so as not to self -destruct Blind, Denialist Godfaith...the purest lodestone of the Faith most guaranteed to get one into heaven?

The bottom line is really whether anyone not already totally bought up into denialist Godfaith will find any of those excuses persuasive and NOT about whether you or any other True Believer can deny everything and cling to Faith. It isn't about what you can deny, or if you refuse to be reasonable, frankly, that you somehow win by default. The debate is for the peanut gallery, and really always was, and you and your opponents are on the stage presenting your case. And you should be able to imagine the audience shuffling with disbelief (or dismay if they are believers) as you demand that your opponent Prove that bad stuff happens or misdirect with 'why aren't you out there preventing rapes' as unpersuasive as 'If you are so concerned about global warming, why aren't you out there inventing energy -saving devices?' It may look like a clever polemical caltrop to shut the atheist up, but the audience will not be impressed. I won't think that line too far, but you get the picture of how this debate looks as opposed to how you evidently Think it looks.

[POI]

Bump:

Dear Christians.

I do not want to deprive any of you in providing your wisdom regarding this topic. Thus far, the vast majority of responses have overlapped with the 'problem of evil' argument. Option 1) seems to veer into that 'problem' as well.

Allow me to reiterate/recap/summarize/shorten the OP request. The Christian apologist, in the provided video, states the 'problem of divine hiddessness' in actually NOT a problem --> for (3) reasons:

!) God answers true requests on His time, not yours.
2) Remaining hidden, for a while, strengthens your future relationship.
3) God may not reveal Himself to one who He knows will rebel.

Feel free to choose any of the three above. Or, pick your own and explain. Let's solve this apparent "problem", which apparently is NOT a problem, together. Shall we?

Thank you in advance!

[1213]

We have been over and over this question and you simply won't give an honest, straight forward answer.
WHY DOESN'T YOUR GOD DO ANYTHING?

I think that question is loaded and dishonest. I have no reason to accept its assumption that God does nothing.

More honest question would be, why God allows people to suffer?

To that my answer is, people wanted to know evil like God knows. That is why people were expelled to this first death, that is much like the Matrix, where we can experience also evil things so that we can learn to know what it means, without anything destroying our soul, which is the important thing.

But, God also gave us instructions for good life, for example that we should not murder. That shows to me that He cares and has done at least something. Luckily no suffering lasts forever here. Every evil person dies and those who are not evil but righteous, will have eternal life and all suffering compensated, which also means God will do something. This is why I don't think evil is a problem. But, this doesn't mean it is ok to do evil things. As Bible shows, people should not do bad things to others.

[TRANSPONDER]

I don't expect much in the way of response. Our pal's last throw attempt to play the 'reasons we don't have to give reasons' card was probably the best we can expect.

I see this thread not so much as a thread on the 'The incredible disappearing God', but a place to look at just what evidence for a god can be presented and what can be asked for.

[brunumb]

We have been over and over this question and you simply won't give an honest, straight forward answer.
WHY DOESN'T YOUR GOD DO ANYTHING?

I think that question is loaded and dishonest. I have no reason to accept its assumption that God does nothing.

More honest question would be, why God allows people to suffer?

Changing the question is a convenient but dishonest way of getting around having to answer it. It appears that you are unable to answer the original question or that the real answer makes you uncomfortable. Readers can reach their own conclusions, so let's leave it at that.

[TRANSPONDER]

We have been over and over this question and you simply won't give an honest, straight forward answer.
WHY DOESN'T YOUR GOD DO ANYTHING?

I think that question is loaded and dishonest. I have no reason to accept its assumption that God does nothing.

More honest question would be, why God allows people to suffer?

Changing the question is a convenient but dishonest way of getting around having to answer it. It appears that you are unable to answer the original question or that the real answer makes you uncomfortable. Readers can reach their own conclusions, so let's leave it at that.

.I thought that the point had been tweaked, from an implicit 'Is there no god there to do anything?' to 'There is a god there - what excuses can we think up to say why he allows it'.

The difference is whether one starts without a god until it is validated, or accepts the god as a given and excuses any questions about why he doesn't sort it all out. Many excuses as I said, from 'we deserve it',to 'God knows what he is doing'. It really does come down to Godfaith or not, and that like whether you bash a rocket into an asteroid or not, determines the course of the argument. If one does not buy into a god to begin with then nothing that is offered as an excuse will do, because 'it makes more sense if there is no God', is still the more logically parsimonious hypothesis.

To those with Godfaith, all problems and objections are deflected with various reasons, backed up with Bibleverse, perhaps, and 'God knows best' as a final trump card. The trump of the trump however is 'which god are we talking about?' . Theists always forget about that and assume that it's the god they believe in or not, and which god never comes into it. One day I really must let a Theist lead me up the garden path all the way to Theism and then ask, 'which religion are we talking about then?' Because I can't remember the discussion EVER getting that far. One poster responded 'there is only One God' and I asked 'which one is that? and there was no response. that I can recall.

Though I do recall a debate about first cause which did result in his leap of faith to the Bible. which is the way it does work - you validate some sorta god and then the mental leap to Jesus as the only possible 'God' we could be talking about. But this is drifting off the topic, but it really the basic of which 'why is God hidden' is one of the many doubter - questions designed to deconvert, just as 'who made everything, then?' is intended to convert.

[AquinasForGod]

I have one assumption. Because it defeats the reason why we are here on earth.

If we did not need to exist in such a way that God is not evident, then we could just exist in heaven like angels or God would just be here for everyone to know.

Why would this need to be the case?

Because in order for us to really choose God, then God cannot be so evident. Even the disciples who saw Jesus resurrect had reasons to be skeptical. They could have thought, what if this is just a mighty being from some other planet or something?

Even Moses had reasons to wonder if the being he encountered was actually the eternal God.

[brunumb]

Because in order for us to really choose God, then God cannot be so evident.

What difference does it make?

[AquinasForGod]

Because in order for us to really choose God, then God cannot be so evident.

What difference does it make?

Are these real questions? That is a real question, btw. I really want to know if you are asking serious questions.

I would not be choosing to believe in my mom, for example, because her existence is overtly evident.