Let's pretend...

Argue for and against Christianity

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Tcg
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Let's pretend...

Post #1

Post by Tcg »

.

...that any of the arguments for god are valid. We have to pretend of course because they are horrible. But, if one established that a god created us, them, the universe and whatever else, what reason would there be to conclude that creator is still around?

As I like to present for example, maybe god was given a chemistry set for Christmas one year and he accidentally blew himself up. Then his bits and pieces and those of the chemistry set become the universe. There'd be no more god any more.


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Re: Let's pretend...

Post #111

Post by Difflugia »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:49 amIt's why I'm trying to pin this thing down to some sort of working definition.
Everything except God needed something to start it, therefore God. The rest is window dressing.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Let's pretend...

Post #112

Post by TRANSPONDER »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:49 am
TRANSPONDER wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:54 am ...
but if you wanted to stop wasting it, you could cease your prolonged and repetitive peddling of a sort of Kalam apologetics (a god -claim dressed up to look like it is something else) and, since it isn't even important OTHER than as a springboard (for others) to the Bible, I think you might save the time - wasting to start off.
I've been trying real hard to benefit of the doubt this thing, and just as hard not to "get ahead" of the argument, but we sure oughtn fuss at folks who draw the same conclusion you have here.

It's why I'm trying to pin this thing down to some sort of working definition. Of course we gotta consider me and a light bulb only look alike when that bulb's done been dimmed :wave:
Aside from the efforts to argue First Cause, which as said above simply generates more turtles unless one says: "Hang this for a lark..suppose we say that This turtle didn't need to be created, and then we can all go home.", I will just rehearse the 3 options: a first cause that was always there, a first cause that popped out of nowhere for no reason, or a first cause that didn't need to be created. And I won't dwell on the finger - pointing to the Bias that causes apologists to argue for one of the options and damn' the others. Just to agree that yes, 'agnostics' (irreligious theists Aka "Deists", and I don't mind the label so long as they know what they mean) are our brothren and sistren (provided they are broad -minded about Atheist Saturday night cabaret), and there Should not be a quarrel, except (apparently for political reasons) some agnostics hate atheism.

I'll just say that what we have here, is not a failure to communicate, but a venerable, ancient and well tried explanation that is common to all the races of earth and all times 'When you don't know the explanation, say a big invisible human did it'.

Oh.... and don't worry about the Light Bulb problem; as Lucy van Pelt says: "Sometimes it takes a layman to set these people straight."

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Re: Let's pretend...

Post #113

Post by Clownboat »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:42 pm Appeal to Ridicule:

Presenting the argument in such a way that makes the argument look ridiculous, usually by misrepresenting the argument or the use of exaggeration.
You dodge because of just how on point my claim is.
You and the readers see that fairy farts have exactly the same explanatory power when considering our universe coming to be. Also, I did not misrepresent any argument nor did I did I employ the use of exaggeration. The lengths some people will go to in order to not acknowledge a debate challenge is astonishing.

Fairy farts are no more ridiculous for causing our universe then a god of sorts. You are not comforable addressing this, so dodge with pretending it is an appeal to ridicule.

So one more time in hopes you might attempt to debate: "Now why would a god of sorts be a perferable explanation when compared to a fairy fart?"
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Re: Let's pretend...

Post #114

Post by William »

[Replying to Clownboat in post #113]
Fairy farts are no more ridiculous for causing our universe then a god of sorts.
Image
My Fairy Friend [pictured above] has asked me to inform you that;
Until you can clearly explain fairy farts and how they are responsible for you being in the universe, we will go with the idea that we are the product of an intelligent purposeful process and not an accidental one.
She also asks me to ask you;
Explain why there is no difference between Godidit and Fairyfartsidit...

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Re: Let's pretend...

Post #115

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #112
'When you don't know the explanation, say a big invisible human did it'.
At what point did I propose "a big invisible human"? A popular strawman, but it doesn't stand.
'agnostics' (irreligious theists Aka "Deists", and I don't mind the label so long as they know what they mean)
If you're going to use the label "Deist", you should make sure that you know what it means. There's a lot of ground to cover under that term.

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Re: Let's pretend...

Post #116

Post by TRANSPONDER »

Athetotheist wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:59 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #112
'When you don't know the explanation, say a big invisible human did it'.
At what point did I propose "a big invisible human"? A popular strawman, but it doesn't stand.
'agnostics' (irreligious theists Aka "Deists", and I don't mind the label so long as they know what they mean)
If you're going to use the label "Deist", you should make sure that you know what it means. There's a lot of ground to cover under that term.
I may have said this before but it's not all about you. I am talking about humanity in general and its' instinct to explain the unknown by a 'big invisible human' doing it. That sid, I would risk a very large bet that your Oz behind the curtain of veiled references to Underlying Reality or whatever term you used which you were eventually obliged to put your hand up to being Intelligent is rather closely related to this big invisible human that I speak of.

I know what I mean by Deist - I have already said as much 'Irreligious Theist'. It can cover, as you say, a lot of other ground (meanings) accurate or not.

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Re: Let's pretend...

Post #117

Post by TRANSPONDER »

[Replying to William in post #114]

"Explain why there is no difference between Godidit and Fairyfartsidit..."

"Intelligent Purposeful Process" is just another way of saying (Deist) "god did it". We are talking about a non -religious god here. Or on the face of it. I haven't forgotten (if I remember rightly) that you are no more signed up to a religion than I am, perhaps even less so (I sorta like Buddhism).

The point being that the fairy that farted the universe into existence is no less proven than an Intelligent first case, except that it has been somewhat anthropomorphised for comic effect, which is done with 'God' at times. The point of the point being that your post was misdirection; it is not a debate about why fairies and Gods are the same, but what is your evidence (other than 'there is no other explanation' (which is the deglaize that First cause boils down to) for this creative (unsaid but required) Intelligence and of course where it came from, if not a fairy to fart Him into Existence.


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Re: Let's pretend...

Post #118

Post by William »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #117]

My post wasn't misdirection but pointing out misdirection being made in the conflating [through the use of humor] of fairy farts with an intelligent purposeful creator of the universe.

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Re: Let's pretend...

Post #119

Post by Difflugia »

William wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:35 pmMy post wasn't misdirection but pointing out misdirection being made in the conflating [through the use of humor] of fairy farts with an intelligent purposeful creator of the universe.
TRANSPONDER's analogy (or "conflation," if you will) is apt. You have posited, but not adequately defined something whose only salient property is the ability to create a universe. You claim misdirection, but as far as I can tell, fairy farts and your "intelligent purposeful creator" lie not only along the same direction as each other, but at the same address.

You have a habit of simply denying otherwise apt analogies for superficial reasons, but if it's to be meaningful, you have to come up with a distinction that's relevant to the topic. Fairy farts are presumably neither intelligent nor purposeful, but you haven't explained why either of those is necessary to the magic of universe creation. You may imagine that whatever creator must be intelligent and purposeful, but you haven't offered a reason that anyone else should think so.
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Re: Let's pretend...

Post #120

Post by William »

William wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:35 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #117]

My post wasn't misdirection but pointing out misdirection being made in the conflating [through the use of humor] of fairy farts with an intelligent purposeful creator of the universe.
To add to that, where such analogy might humorously apply to ideas of Gods who were created, the fact that there are also ideas of Gods who were NOT created. means that it only applies to some ideas of Gods and not all of them.
Thus the analogy is indeed, misdirection.

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