Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Purple Knight
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Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Post by Purple Knight »

Question for debate: Where does secular morality come from?

Is it just, what is best for all? What if something is good for one person and bad for another? What if two people disagree? What determines who is right? Evidence perhaps? Or are there some things that are just wrong period, no reasons needed?

Here's an example: If someone could show you that a purge society (wherein murder is legal for some or all of the time) actually works really well and solves most or all of society's problems? Would murder then be moral? Or is murder immoral no matter what, no reasons needed?

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Re: Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Post by Miles »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:50 pm Question for debate: Where does secular morality come from?
Thinking secularists who are empathetic and enjoy harmony and good will in their lives.

Is it just, what is best for all? What if something is good for one person and bad for another? What if two people disagree? What determines who is right? Evidence perhaps? Or are there some things that are just wrong period, no reasons needed?
Five questions too many.

Here's an example: If someone could show you that a purge society (wherein murder is legal for some or all of the time) actually works really well and solves most or all of society's problems?
Depends on the nature of society's problems.

Would murder then be moral? Or is murder immoral no matter what, no reasons needed?
Murder is a legal concept "The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another," so it would automatically be against the ethics of a society---it's been declared to be unlawful.

.

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Re: Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Post by Difflugia »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:50 pmQuestion for debate: Where does secular morality come from?
People applying their problem-solving skills to social problems plus "might makes right." That also happens to be where religious morality comes from.
Purple Knight wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:50 pmIs it just, what is best for all? What if something is good for one person and bad for another? What if two people disagree? What determines who is right?
"Might makes right."
Purple Knight wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:50 pmEvidence perhaps? Or are there some things that are just wrong period, no reasons needed?
People are animals with behavior patterns initially dictated by our evolutionary history, but we're also good at modifying those behaviors ourselves. Humans can "gut feel" math (this is more than that, this pile is about a third of the size of that one, one plus one is two), but better math can be learned. The same is true with morality. Take what's mine, lie to me, or sedue my spouse and I'll beat you up or kill you. Better morality can be learned. Whether or not it's evidence-based depends on what other intellectual building blocks have been learned, but which methods get used again boil down to might makes right. It's easy to see that tit-for-tat is grossly inefficient and most any systematic morality is better, but some are barely better (if your innate jealousy circuit goes off, have the priest feed your wife dirty poop water instead of killing her outright yourself).
Purple Knight wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:50 pmHere's an example: If someone could show you that a purge society (wherein murder is legal for some or all of the time) actually works really well and solves most or all of society's problems? Would murder then be moral? Or is murder immoral no matter what, no reasons needed?
That's exactly the capital punishment debate. Texans come to one conclusion, New Yorkers another.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:50 pm Question for debate: Where does secular morality come from?

Is it just, what is best for all? What if something is good for one person and bad for another? What if two people disagree? What determines who is right? Evidence perhaps? Or are there some things that are just wrong period, no reasons needed?

Here's an example: If someone could show you that a purge society (wherein murder is legal for some or all of the time) actually works really well and solves most or all of society's problems? Would murder then be moral? Or is murder immoral no matter what, no reasons needed?
You wouln't belive the responses I cancelled, including the Atheist professor and the Christian student (the Secular is simply the absence of God) or the Raspberry song which would just have been deleted, but I have to contest the ongoing Theist -based wrong slant let us say. And it's this:

"Let's assume a few Givens: God exists, He is (if not the god of the Bible) good, moral, made us and cares for us and programmed morality into our hearts along the auricles and ventricles. And if we don't allow God to micromanage our Morals, we end up doing Euthanasia, baby eating and writing positive reviews for She - Hulk."

The problem is God as a Given. IF, If, you begin with 'With God, morals are perfect (any backsliding can be blamed on Man) and anything that isn't up to that is not acceptable' then the premise of the OP follows - we get evils.

But the Other view (and the logically valid one) is: Humans are animals, we are red in tooth and claw and society and technology has just made us able to do more damage then ever before. :But we have developed empathy, reciprocity and a glimmering of realisation that we can do better than the rubbish hand that natural selection has dealt us. And rather than falling short of a god that (so far as reason argues) doesn't exist, we have done amazingly well for a bunch of tree - swinging banana -eaters.

Point is; it is irrelevant to point to the problems. It is ingenuous (at best) to suggest that a Theist morality would sort our problems; they were even worse in the past. I think we are on the edge of understanding humans, ethics and morality biologically, and what we need to do socially. I'm not saying it would work, I can see staggering problems (educating humanity to where it is fit to elect leaders being the toughest) but I firmly believe that it's better than letting Jesus take the wheel and not expecting a car - crash, fouling up something horrible and passing the blame to Mankind, and never mind about pushing for a nuclear armageddon so as to make Revelation come true.

Not only is God - morality not better than secular morality, we urgently need to be shot of it, and just remember Sept 11th and January 8 if you have forgot where religious ethics leads.

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Re: Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:50 pm Question for debate: Where does secular morality come from?

Is it just, what is best for all? What if something is good for one person and bad for another? What if two people disagree? What determines who is right? Evidence perhaps? Or are there some things that are just wrong period, no reasons needed?

Here's an example: If someone could show you that a purge society (wherein murder is legal for some or all of the time) actually works really well and solves most or all of society's problems? Would murder then be moral? Or is murder immoral no matter what, no reasons needed?
Murder's a legal definition, and therefore it's wrong according to the law.

Homicide, now that's a whole nother deal.

I'd have no problem homociding anyone who attempted to harm those I love.

Morality, whether "secular" or "religious" is a purely human construct, reliant on the opinion of the individual considering em a given bit of it.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Purple Knight wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:50 pm Question for debate: Where does secular morality come from?

Is it just, what is best for all? What if something is good for one person and bad for another? What if two people disagree? What determines who is right? Evidence perhaps? Or are there some things that are just wrong period, no reasons needed?

Here's an example: If someone could show you that a purge society (wherein murder is legal for some or all of the time) actually works really well and solves most or all of society's problems? Would murder then be moral? Or is murder immoral no matter what, no reasons needed?
Rather than to go into the weeds here, I'll start by dropping a 4 minute video:

In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Post by TRANSPONDER »

Yes/ But of course God IS the Objective basis of morality that Christians are talking about. God says so, therefore it is.

That fails of course, not only because the existence of God is (as the video said) the proposition that the argument is trying to prove, and not even that even if morals come from 'God', it doesn't tell us which one (1) but God's say so is not objective but God's opinion, it is not objective morality in itself, but dictatorial and like many of a dictator is more what he says to do, rather than what he does himself.

And incidentally, wasn't that Lane -Craig again? He seems to be quite the fellow for coming up with Godfaith -basd syllogisms that are utter trash but are dressed up to sound like sound philosophy, and obviously impress the faithful.

(1) cue 'Christian morality is better than the morality of any other religion'.

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Re: Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Post by Purple Knight »

POI wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:48 pmRather than to go into the weeds here, I'll start by dropping a 4 minute video:
One thing the video insists is that you need to prove that objective morals exist. I disagree. Morality just is. It is the First Thing, which everything is built upon. Other things are proven using morality. Morality - objective morality even - is a first assumption, and it's a first assumption from anyone who engages in debate about morality, otherwise there would not be a debate. There would not be forums such as these with fairly strict debate rules if the question of morality was subjective and no more answerable than whether a swan or a monarch butterfly is prettier.

I don't believe that God is necessary for objective morals. In fact, I think that if morality is simply what the most powerful being dictates, then it is not morality at all but simply might-makes-right and nothing else. Since morality is not about might, and since might does not make right, morality cannot simply be the dictates of any god.

If anyone disagrees with me that morality is actually a First Assumption for other things to be proven with, well, that's what this thread is for. If it can come from anywhere else, I'd like to hear about it.
Difflugia wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:41 amHumans can "gut feel" math (this is more than that, this pile is about a third of the size of that one, one plus one is two), but better math can be learned. The same is true with morality. Take what's mine, lie to me, or seduce my spouse and I'll beat you up or kill you. Better morality can be learned.
The question then would be whether we should smell test everything: Build up on evidence, but, if it feels wrong, then it probably is. The most moral people today seem to be the polar opposite of what many people intuit about morality. Steal, cheat, kill - the people who do these things need kindness, and more of it than the rule-follower gets, not primitive punishment. To the grug-brain who hasn't learned any better math, it's like saying, that pile that looks to be about a third, it is actually bigger, your intuition is not only imprecise, it is pointing in the opposite direction of truth.
Difflugia wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:41 am
Purple Knight wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:50 pmHere's an example: If someone could show you that a purge society (wherein murder is legal for some or all of the time) actually works really well and solves most or all of society's problems? Would murder then be moral? Or is murder immoral no matter what, no reasons needed?
That's exactly the capital punishment debate. Texans come to one conclusion, New Yorkers another.
I've pondered this exact thing myself.

The only way they're not coming to opposite moral conclusions is if it really is immoral to kill anyone, but the real singular qualifier is if we can afford to be nice, and Texas thinks no while New York thinks yes. In other words, it's really a contention about whether enough advantage is provided to the rulebreakers by letting them live that it will turn into a death spiral and eventually everyone will be a murderer because that's the advantageous strategy. And obviously then, society won't work and it'll collapse and there won't be any laws at all, including laws that you can't kill a killer; killers will die if someone wants to kill them and can, same as everybody else.

If it's a question of what will happen, then people for and against punishment of all sorts aren't necessarily disagreeing about morality.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:29 pmMorality, whether "secular" or "religious" is a purely human construct, reliant on the opinion of the individual considering em a given bit of it.
If you really believe that, then you certainly can homicide someone who killed someone you love. But you can't use morality to justify your actions over his. Now, I actually prefer this because the metagame will become about what's right for everyone. That killer didn't just take from you, he took from Bob, Pedro, and Joe too. So you, and all them, get together and say, let's not have that killer loose.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:36 amBut the Other view (and the logically valid one) is: Humans are animals, we are red in tooth and claw and society and technology has just made us able to do more damage then ever before. :But we have developed empathy, reciprocity and a glimmering of realisation that we can do better than the rubbish hand that natural selection has dealt us. And rather than falling short of a god that (so far as reason argues) doesn't exist, we have done amazingly well for a bunch of tree - swinging banana -eaters.
You and the Knotty penguin seem to be agreeing with Difflugia - morality can come from the very fact that we have no morality, and our naked greed. Somewhere along the way we develop empathy and by doing so, get greedier, more successfully. Those groups with empathy that aren't cutting one another's throats wipe the floor with the tribes without, and boom, humanity acquires empathy. We should have empathy because it works and we do and that's it.

It demonstrates great honestly to admit this is what it really is, but the one flaw is that the minority opinion gets trampled not unfortunately and immorally, but as a part of the process that is no more unjust than locking up or getting rid of a killer.

If we have a morality that says we can't just trample the minority whenever we ought to, it would have to be extraneous to this process the three of you all agree on. This is the one moral rule that doesn't fit with this outlook. It goes beyond giving people agency in whether or not they're punished, too.

In other words, having laws and clear rules, divorcing it from, let's just kill Bob nobody likes him, makes it to we can all choose to follow the rules and avoid punishment, and in an ideal world, it will be the following of those rules that prevents Bob from doing the things that are pissing everyone off. If he finds things to do within the rules to still harass people, then that simply means the rules are non-ideal. Likewise, if rules on top of rules are made to target Bob, because the popular girls are dictators and they just hate him, it won't matter too much since they can't make rules to stifle themselves and their friends and that gives Bob some protection from being law-bullied. They can't see how much Bob loves his dog and ban dogs, because then their little purse-ridding foo dogs go too. Thus, having clear laws that apply to all is best for all.

But the protection of the minority and minority opinions? No, not really. Not the same way. I think not being able to think makes the world suck but (lol) that is not the majority opinion. And I do increasingly wonder if demanding freedom to do so, on almost no basis, is really hurting people and it's just selfish.

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Re: Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Post by JoeyKnothead »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:17 pm ...
JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:29 pmMorality, whether "secular" or "religious" is a purely human construct, reliant on the opinion of the individual considering em a given bit of it.
If you really believe that, then you certainly can homicide someone who killed someone you love. But you can't use morality to justify your actions over his.
Which is why I said morality is on the individual.
Now, I actually prefer this because the metagame will become about what's right for everyone. That killer didn't just take from you, he took from Bob, Pedro, and Joe too. So you, and all them, get together and say, let's not have that killer loose.
In my scenario, I don't care what's right for everyone, nor do I care what anyone else thinks.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Where does Secular Morality Come From?

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Post by Purple Knight »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:23 pm Which is why I said morality is on the individual.
Again, plus for honesty about what morality is. I would wager that most people who believe this, actively try to make morality into something objective.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:23 pmIn my scenario, I don't care what's right for everyone, nor do I care what anyone else thinks.
You're not supposed to. If you do it actually ruins the metagame. A fair meta only emerges if everyone really is out for themselves. If people start thinking about others then it just turns into a game of pretend-to-be-selfless and the best pretender wins.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:58 pm Yes/ But of course God IS the Objective basis of morality that Christians are talking about. God says so, therefore it is.

That fails of course, not only because the existence of God is (as the video said) the proposition that the argument is trying to prove, and not even that even if morals come from 'God', it doesn't tell us which one (1) but God's say so is not objective but God's opinion, it is not objective morality in itself, but dictatorial and like many of a dictator is more what he says to do, rather than what he does himself.

And incidentally, wasn't that Lane -Craig again? He seems to be quite the fellow for coming up with Godfaith -basd syllogisms that are utter trash but are dressed up to sound like sound philosophy, and obviously impress the faithful.

(1) cue 'Christian morality is better than the morality of any other religion'.
1. Without God, objective morality wouldn't exist
2. Objective morality exists
________________________
∴ God therefore exists.

All that syllogism does is define God as "the thing morality is based upon" so it could be one of those asymmetrical flatfish with the two eyeballs on one side for all we know. If morality stood on that, then that would be God - according to that syllogism which I actually think is valid. It just says so little about what God is that it's rendered non-useful.

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