Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

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Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

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Post by Daedalus X »

In another thread a member made the following claim.
Danmark wrote: You continue to demonstrate your misunderstanding of the Constitution. The 2d amendment was not created to facilitate armed rebellion against the very country the Constitution created. As it says itself, it was created so a 'well regulated militia' could protect the State.
Question for debate, why did the founders create the second amendment?

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Re: Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

Post #51

Post by Daedalus X »

2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:40 pm Oh yes, and guns have a function: to kill. But the damage they inflict is not collateral, it is entirely deiberate. A gun has no other purpose. As for all the guns in the US; precisely. I am not ignoring this, just deploring it, on behalf of murdered innocents.
More than 100 million innocents were murdered by governments in the 20th century. That number would have been far lower had those societies had guns, to defend themselves from their governments.

"The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." - Kurt Tucholsky.

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Re: Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

Post #52

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Daedalus X wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:03 pm
2ndRateMind wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:40 pm Oh yes, and guns have a function: to kill. But the damage they inflict is not collateral, it is entirely deiberate. A gun has no other purpose. As for all the guns in the US; precisely. I am not ignoring this, just deploring it, on behalf of murdered innocents.
More than 100 million innocents were murdered by governments in the 20th century. That number would have been far lower had those societies had guns, to defend themselves from their governments.

"The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." - Kurt Tucholsky.
A counter factual is always debatable. But even if it wasn't, are you really suggesting that c20 history justifies school massacres in our day and age? Or is the truth, as I suspect, that Americans love their guns more than they love each other's children?

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

Post #53

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Daedalus X wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:03 pm
"The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic." - Kurt Tucholsky.
To God, of course, it's millions of tragedies.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

Post #54

Post by Clownboat »

2ndRateMind wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:10 am
Clownboat wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:01 am
Copy/paste: My only point is that we need to 'reason' about the world we do live in. Citizens of the USA have LOTS of guns. Your scenario above ignores this.

But, but, but... guns are made to kill! =;
Hmmm. Read my post again. You might even find you get to understand it better, how it addresses all the points you made, and raises a few more you have so far declined to tackle.

Best wishes, 2RM.
I read it again and it still failed to address that Citizens of the USA do in fact have LOTS of guns and your original scenario (Would Uvalde, or any other of your school massacres, have happened if the guns were not freely available?) failed to take this in to account.

I'll go one further...
If guns had never been invented, would Uvalde, or any other school masscre have happened?

How much time should we spend discussing a scenario in which guns were never invented? Seems like an irrational waste of time to me when there are real issue to discuss like gun control and ownership, or in this OP, why the founding fathers gave the 2nd amendment to begin with.
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Re: Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

Post #55

Post by Clownboat »

2ndRateMind wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:08 pm Or is the truth, as I suspect, that Americans love their guns more than they love each other's children?

Best wishes, 2RM.
What you suspect is not rational.
First, 'what if guns were not readily available in the USA' even though they are?
Now, 'Americans love guns more than each others children'.

I can't take your criticisms seriously anylonger.

Do be well though.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

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Re: Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

Post #56

Post by Daedalus X »

2ndRateMind wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 6:08 pm But even if it wasn't, are you really suggesting that c20 history justifies school massacres in our day and age? Or is the truth, as I suspect, that Americans love their guns more than they love each other's children?
It is not that the deaths of our school children is justified, it is more about the idea that we don't care about the children. The anti-gun side likes to stand on the graves of these children as a platform to launch their anti-gun campaign. And the pro-gun side values the survival of the republic more than the survival of a small number of children.
Far more children are dying from something (maybe the vaccine) other than gun violence in the schools, and our societies will not even make an effort to investigate why so many children and people in general are dying en masse. We just don't care if someone that we do not know dies, unless we can use it to promote our personal agenda.

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Re: Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

Post #57

Post by 2ndRateMind »

by Clownboat » Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:16 pm

2ndRateMind wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:08 pm
Or is the truth, as I suspect, that Americans love their guns more than they love each other's children?

Best wishes, 2RM.
What you suspect is not rational.
...
Now, 'Americans love guns more than each others children'.



Honestly, what else are we all supposed to think? These shootings happens quite frequently, and each time they do, instead of the entire nation rising up demanding of the polticians that they do something decisive to end them once and for all, you all just slope off and mutter about how they'd better not mess with my 2nd Amendment rights. As a result, the best your leaders can do is tinker round the edges, like specifying maximum magazine sizes, or removing licenses from the mentally disturbed.

Now, there's a lot to like about America and Americans, but on this issue your national priorities are sadly warped. And if I was God, I'd be taking a pretty dim view of them.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

Post #58

Post by Daedalus X »

2ndRateMind wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:17 pm Honestly, what else are we all supposed to think? These shootings happens quite frequently, and each time they do, instead of the entire nation rising up demanding of the polticians that they do something decisive to end them once and for all, you all just slope off and mutter about how they'd better not mess with my 2nd Amendment rights. As a result, the best your leaders can do is tinker round the edges, like specifying maximum magazine sizes, or removing licenses from the mentally disturbed.

Now, there's a lot to like about America and Americans, but on this issue your national priorities are sadly warped. And if I was God, I'd be taking a pretty dim view of them.
Your argument is built on false assumptions. It is like saying that when the ice cream sales at the beach rises, shark attacks happen quite frequently, so we should demand of the politicians to shut down the sales of ice cream on the beach.

Many countries have high gun ownership but the killing of children with guns is rare. For example Switzerland, high gun ownership but I could not find a single mass shooting of children.

Another factor that you are overlooking is the public and private school divide. I think that a child in public school has a 20 fold greater chance of dying in a mass shooting. Must be that the 2nd amendment only applies to public schools.

So, it is not gun ownership that causes these school shootings. Our national priorities may be sadly warped, but at least we still have a nation, and our second amendment was written to protect the nation from those who wish to enslave us.

You have hinted at not being American severe times now, would you be willing to share what nation you call home?

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Re: Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

Post #59

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Daedalus X wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:43 pm Many countries have high gun ownership but the killing of children with guns is rare. For example Switzerland, high gun ownership but I could not find a single mass shooting of children.
Precisely. Maybe the Swiss love each other's children more than you do, or maybe it's just that they are trained better during their national service that, as part of the civil miltia, they are expected to be better disciplined than your civilians are.
...
We don't have guns in private hands (apart from hunting rifles and shot guns, under strict license), but we still have a nation. The defense of yours does not depend on an armed rabble, but on a professional, federal military.
...
I'm a Brit. Look, I'm not getting at you for the sake of it, but because I genuinely have your best interests at heart, and want you all to enjoy happier, safer lives.

Best wishes, 2RM.
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Re: Why did the founders give us the 2nd amendment?

Post #60

Post by Clownboat »

2ndRateMind wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:17 pm by Clownboat » Thu Oct 06, 2022 2:16 pm

2ndRateMind wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:08 pm
Or is the truth, as I suspect, that Americans love their guns more than they love each other's children?

Best wishes, 2RM.
What you suspect is not rational.
...
Now, 'Americans love guns more than each others children'.



Honestly, what else are we all supposed to think? These shootings happens quite frequently, and each time they do, instead of the entire nation rising up demanding of the polticians that they do something decisive to end them once and for all, you all just slope off and mutter about how they'd better not mess with my 2nd Amendment rights. As a result, the best your leaders can do is tinker round the edges, like specifying maximum magazine sizes, or removing licenses from the mentally disturbed.

Now, there's a lot to like about America and Americans, but on this issue your national priorities are sadly warped. And if I was God, I'd be taking a pretty dim view of them.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Sorry, you lost me here: "Americans love guns more than each others children."
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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