Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

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Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #1

Post by POI »

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #211

Post by POI »

Please recall, I'm asking how one is saved. I'm asking theists what is God's criteria. You do not seem to be able to do that yet? But I continue to remain optimistic. Again, I have finally, after all these decades, found the ONE person to give me truth. So please, give us all, the right answer (i.e.):

A) Unconditional grace (all are saved)
B) Grace by belief/faith
C) Grace through your works
D) Both B and C
E) No one is worthy
F) Other

So far, at minimum, you've basically touched on the possibility of answers A) through D).?.?.?
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm By studying his written word one learns many facts of what God dislikes and what he accepts.
That's great. If you happen to perform one of His dislikes, does this place you immediately on the naughty list? And to the contrary, if you happen to do something He likes, are you then placed back on the saved list?

I can't imagine you will always please or disappoint Him. Same goes for anyone you love. So what IS His threshold between salvation/condemnation? What is the fine line, if you are indeed dearly perpetually trying to appease Him?
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm The answers come to those, but are hard to explain.
It's "hard to explain" because the Bible does not provide a clear answer. You can earnestly surmise conflicting conclusions. Like I told "Tam" a while back... God is very clear, when He wants to be. With salvation, not-so-much.
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm Jesus said this--John 17:3( a prayer to his Father)--This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus.---The only way one can know them both is by studying the bible-it never stops. John 17:6=YHWH(Jehovah) John 17:26= YHWH(Jehovah) = the Father.
Jesus says quite a lot of things. But my question still remains, how is one saved? Here, maybe this 7 minute video will help. I've provided it before, but feel it is quite fitting here:

In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #212

Post by kjw47 »

POI wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:55 am Please recall, I'm asking how one is saved. I'm asking theists what is God's criteria. You do not seem to be able to do that yet? But I continue to remain optimistic. Again, I have finally, after all these decades, found the ONE person to give me truth. So please, give us all, the right answer (i.e.):

A) Unconditional grace (all are saved)
B) Grace by belief/faith
C) Grace through your works
D) Both B and C
E) No one is worthy
F) Other

So far, at minimum, you've basically touched on the possibility of answers A) through D).?.?.?
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm By studying his written word one learns many facts of what God dislikes and what he accepts.
That's great. If you happen to perform one of His dislikes, does this place you immediately on the naughty list? And to the contrary, if you happen to do something He likes, are you then placed back on the saved list?

I can't imagine you will always please or disappoint Him. Same goes for anyone you love. So what IS His threshold between salvation/condemnation? What is the fine line, if you are indeed dearly perpetually trying to appease Him?
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm The answers come to those, but are hard to explain.
It's "hard to explain" because the Bible does not provide a clear answer. You can earnestly surmise conflicting conclusions. Like I told "Tam" a while back... God is very clear, when He wants to be. With salvation, not-so-much.
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm Jesus said this--John 17:3( a prayer to his Father)--This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus.---The only way one can know them both is by studying the bible-it never stops. John 17:6=YHWH(Jehovah) John 17:26= YHWH(Jehovah) = the Father.
Jesus says quite a lot of things. But my question still remains, how is one saved? Here, maybe this 7 minute video will help. I've provided it before, but feel it is quite fitting here:


i have no need to watch that. I showed you what Jesus taught. Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #213

Post by brunumb »

kjw47 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 pm Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.
Who exactly are all these saved ones and how do we know that you are not just making up this claim?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #214

Post by kjw47 »

brunumb wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:54 am
kjw47 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 pm Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.
Who exactly are all these saved ones and how do we know that you are not just making up this claim?

There is enough proof that the bible is Gods written word.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #215

Post by brunumb »

kjw47 wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:34 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:54 am
kjw47 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 pm Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.
Who exactly are all these saved ones and how do we know that you are not just making up this claim?

There is enough proof that the bible is Gods written word.
But the question you failed to answer was: "Who exactly are all these saved ones and how do we know that you are not just making up this claim?"
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #216

Post by POI »

kjw47 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 pm I showed you what Jesus taught. Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.
I don't recall Jesus teaching answer D), provided you possess all "facilities"? Can you show me exactly where He says that?

Further, once you find that very clear passage, please let us know how much of each work(s) is/are absolutely necessary, and how often? Because remember, Jesus decides your fate. Hence, even if you DO express your love and devotion, there appears to be a minimum works requirement? Please disclose what that is? I mean, do you need to be performing 10 works a day?; 20 a day?; are some works more important than others? You could truly love Him and feel your intent is pure, but He could still deem you short. Or, is it an "A" for effort, as long as you try?.?.?.? Please clarify, because you have failed to do so thus far.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #217

Post by TRANSPONDER »

kjw47 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 pm
POI wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:55 am Please recall, I'm asking how one is saved. I'm asking theists what is God's criteria. You do not seem to be able to do that yet? But I continue to remain optimistic. Again, I have finally, after all these decades, found the ONE person to give me truth. So please, give us all, the right answer (i.e.):

A) Unconditional grace (all are saved)
B) Grace by belief/faith
C) Grace through your works
D) Both B and C
E) No one is worthy
F) Other

So far, at minimum, you've basically touched on the possibility of answers A) through D).?.?.?
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm By studying his written word one learns many facts of what God dislikes and what he accepts.
That's great. If you happen to perform one of His dislikes, does this place you immediately on the naughty list? And to the contrary, if you happen to do something He likes, are you then placed back on the saved list?

I can't imagine you will always please or disappoint Him. Same goes for anyone you love. So what IS His threshold between salvation/condemnation? What is the fine line, if you are indeed dearly perpetually trying to appease Him?
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm The answers come to those, but are hard to explain.
It's "hard to explain" because the Bible does not provide a clear answer. You can earnestly surmise conflicting conclusions. Like I told "Tam" a while back... God is very clear, when He wants to be. With salvation, not-so-much.
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm Jesus said this--John 17:3( a prayer to his Father)--This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus.---The only way one can know them both is by studying the bible-it never stops. John 17:6=YHWH(Jehovah) John 17:26= YHWH(Jehovah) = the Father.
Jesus says quite a lot of things. But my question still remains, how is one saved? Here, maybe this 7 minute video will help. I've provided it before, but feel it is quite fitting here:


i have no need to watch that. I showed you what Jesus taught. Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.
It would probably do you good to watch that but like Gollum, you can't even try, yet. It absolutely nails how today what Jesus says (it says) in the gospels is cherry =picked and interpreted to suit current thought and of course various denominations can't agree on the interpretations and docyrines.
kjw47 wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:34 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:54 am
kjw47 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 pm Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.
Who exactly are all these saved ones and how do we know that you are not just making up this claim?

There is enough proof that the bible is Gods written word.
There is no valid evidence (never mind Proof) that the Bible is the Word of anyone other than men, and men who were none too reliable, at that.

Rather there is a lot of good evidence and I'd say 'proof' that the Bible was written by men and who did not know what was true and didn't care much, so long as the audience bought it.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #218

Post by kjw47 »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:43 pm
kjw47 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 pm
POI wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:55 am Please recall, I'm asking how one is saved. I'm asking theists what is God's criteria. You do not seem to be able to do that yet? But I continue to remain optimistic. Again, I have finally, after all these decades, found the ONE person to give me truth. So please, give us all, the right answer (i.e.):

A) Unconditional grace (all are saved)
B) Grace by belief/faith
C) Grace through your works
D) Both B and C
E) No one is worthy
F) Other

So far, at minimum, you've basically touched on the possibility of answers A) through D).?.?.?
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm By studying his written word one learns many facts of what God dislikes and what he accepts.
That's great. If you happen to perform one of His dislikes, does this place you immediately on the naughty list? And to the contrary, if you happen to do something He likes, are you then placed back on the saved list?

I can't imagine you will always please or disappoint Him. Same goes for anyone you love. So what IS His threshold between salvation/condemnation? What is the fine line, if you are indeed dearly perpetually trying to appease Him?
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm The answers come to those, but are hard to explain.
It's "hard to explain" because the Bible does not provide a clear answer. You can earnestly surmise conflicting conclusions. Like I told "Tam" a while back... God is very clear, when He wants to be. With salvation, not-so-much.
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm Jesus said this--John 17:3( a prayer to his Father)--This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus.---The only way one can know them both is by studying the bible-it never stops. John 17:6=YHWH(Jehovah) John 17:26= YHWH(Jehovah) = the Father.
Jesus says quite a lot of things. But my question still remains, how is one saved? Here, maybe this 7 minute video will help. I've provided it before, but feel it is quite fitting here:


i have no need to watch that. I showed you what Jesus taught. Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.
It would probably do you good to watch that but like Gollum, you can't even try, yet. It absolutely nails how today what Jesus says (it says) in the gospels is cherry =picked and interpreted to suit current thought and of course various denominations can't agree on the interpretations and docyrines.
kjw47 wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:34 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:54 am
kjw47 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 pm Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.
Who exactly are all these saved ones and how do we know that you are not just making up this claim?

There is enough proof that the bible is Gods written word.
There is no valid evidence (never mind Proof) that the Bible is the Word of anyone other than men, and men who were none too reliable, at that.

Rather there is a lot of good evidence and I'd say 'proof' that the Bible was written by men and who did not know what was true and didn't care much, so long as the audience bought it.


Many prophecys have already come true. Most of Revelation has been watched passing before the worlds eyes for well over 100 years. Only those in darkness cannot see.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #219

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to kjw47 in post #218]

So many studies have been conducted on unfulfilled prophecies from religions large and small that they were compiled into a fascinating book from 2000, Expecting Armageddon.

Expecting Armageddon: Essential Readings in Failed Prophecy
https://tinyurl.com/mwuye3wy
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

Post #220

Post by POI »

kjw47 wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:45 pm
TRANSPONDER wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:43 pm
kjw47 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 pm
POI wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:55 am Please recall, I'm asking how one is saved. I'm asking theists what is God's criteria. You do not seem to be able to do that yet? But I continue to remain optimistic. Again, I have finally, after all these decades, found the ONE person to give me truth. So please, give us all, the right answer (i.e.):

A) Unconditional grace (all are saved)
B) Grace by belief/faith
C) Grace through your works
D) Both B and C
E) No one is worthy
F) Other

So far, at minimum, you've basically touched on the possibility of answers A) through D).?.?.?
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm By studying his written word one learns many facts of what God dislikes and what he accepts.
That's great. If you happen to perform one of His dislikes, does this place you immediately on the naughty list? And to the contrary, if you happen to do something He likes, are you then placed back on the saved list?

I can't imagine you will always please or disappoint Him. Same goes for anyone you love. So what IS His threshold between salvation/condemnation? What is the fine line, if you are indeed dearly perpetually trying to appease Him?
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm The answers come to those, but are hard to explain.
It's "hard to explain" because the Bible does not provide a clear answer. You can earnestly surmise conflicting conclusions. Like I told "Tam" a while back... God is very clear, when He wants to be. With salvation, not-so-much.
kjw47 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:39 pm Jesus said this--John 17:3( a prayer to his Father)--This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus.---The only way one can know them both is by studying the bible-it never stops. John 17:6=YHWH(Jehovah) John 17:26= YHWH(Jehovah) = the Father.
Jesus says quite a lot of things. But my question still remains, how is one saved? Here, maybe this 7 minute video will help. I've provided it before, but feel it is quite fitting here:


i have no need to watch that. I showed you what Jesus taught. Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.
It would probably do you good to watch that but like Gollum, you can't even try, yet. It absolutely nails how today what Jesus says (it says) in the gospels is cherry =picked and interpreted to suit current thought and of course various denominations can't agree on the interpretations and docyrines.
kjw47 wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:34 pm
brunumb wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 12:54 am
kjw47 wrote: Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:20 pm Every saved one listened to everything Jesus taught and applied it so that are obeying him.
Who exactly are all these saved ones and how do we know that you are not just making up this claim?

There is enough proof that the bible is Gods written word.
There is no valid evidence (never mind Proof) that the Bible is the Word of anyone other than men, and men who were none too reliable, at that.

Rather there is a lot of good evidence and I'd say 'proof' that the Bible was written by men and who did not know what was true and didn't care much, so long as the audience bought it.


Many prophecys have already come true. Most of Revelation has been watched passing before the worlds eyes for well over 100 years. Only those in darkness cannot see.
As long as your expectations and translations are very low and very loose.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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