Atheistic Foundation of Objective Morality

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The Tanager
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Atheistic Foundation of Objective Morality

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Post by The Tanager »

So, this would be a question to those who believe that objective morality can be founded upon an atheistic worldview. What is the objective foundation?

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Post #311

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The Tanager wrote:
Artie wrote:One person helps other people and lives a long and moral life and produces lots of offspring. Another person hurts people and gets shot before he can produce offspring. Which brain wiring got selected? Which brain wiring is most beneficial for the well-being and survival of the society?
But, if that were true, then why do we still have people with the wiring to hurt people and look out for number 1? We have a LOT of people in existence like that.
How many? What's the ratio between those who deliberately hurt people and those who don't? There were 17,284 reported murder and non-negligent manslaughter cases in the U.S. in 2017. Which means there were less than 17,284 murderers of a population of over 300 million. Even though there weren't zero murderers I still think the ratio in favor of non-murderers over murderers is pretty impressive.

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Post #312

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Artie wrote:How many? What's the ratio between those who deliberately hurt people and those who don't? There were 17,284 reported murder and non-negligent manslaughter cases in the U.S. in 2017. Which means there were less than 17,284 murderers of a population of over 300 million. Even though there weren't zero murderers I still think the ratio in favor of non-murderers over murderers is pretty impressive.
Murder is not the only selfish act that puts the self over the greater good. Lies, manipulations, breaking promises, etc. I'm not sure it is about a percentage, although I think that would favor my argument if it were.

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Post #313

Post by The Three-buddy Problem »

The foundation of of objective morality is well-being. That's it.

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Post #314

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[Replying to post 312 by The Three-buddy Problem]
The Three-buddy Problem wrote: The foundation of of objective morality is well-being. That's it.
What is well-being? How is it determined?

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Re: Atheistic Foundation of Objective Morality

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Post by AgnosticBoy »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:35 pm So, this would be a question to those who believe that objective morality can be founded upon an atheistic worldview. What is the objective foundation?
ANY system of morality must address the problem of evil. For instance, an objection to a secular or atheistic foundation for objective morality would be the existence of natural evil. What's the point in doing good when ultimately the Universe doesn't care. People and even entire species can die of natural disasters. If anything, that's evidence for an amoral Universe.

Even if an atheistic foundation for morality gives us objective morals, why would it be to do good? Any moral system would also have standards of evil, as well. So why not also do evil? Which are we supposed to do? If it is all about survival then I can think of plenty of evil acts that doesn't threaten that. Roman Empire lasted hundreds of years (longer than the United States, by far) while allowing the practice of pederasty and concubines.

Some of these answers are rather obvious in a theistic system, although that system also runs into problems when it comes to the problem of evil.
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Re: Atheistic Foundation of Objective Morality

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Post by The Tanager »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:41 pmANY system of morality must address the problem of evil. For instance, an objection to a secular or atheistic foundation for objective morality would be the existence of natural evil. What's the point in doing good when ultimately the Universe doesn't care. People and even entire species can die of natural disasters. If anything, that's evidence for an amoral Universe.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “an amoral Universe”. I mean, as a theist, I would say that the non-human elements of the physical universe are amoral. I wouldn’t say that there is no morality in the universe. Do you mean either of those or something different?
AgnosticBoy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:41 pmEven if an atheistic foundation for morality gives us objective morals, why would it be to do good? Any moral system would also have standards of evil, as well. So why not also do evil? Which are we supposed to do? If it is all about survival then I can think of plenty of evil acts that doesn't threaten that. Roman Empire lasted hundreds of years (longer than the United States, by far) while allowing the practice of pederasty and concubines.

I think this is the problem with views like Wielenberg’s ‘godless normative realism’ which is a form of atheistic moral platonism. Even if “goodness” and “badness” existed, why would those attach to specific actions and not others and, even if they attached themselves to specific actions, what would that have to do with us?
AgnosticBoy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:41 pmSome of these answers are rather obvious in a theistic system, although that system also runs into problems when it comes to the problem of evil.

I would say they aren’t insurmountable, but that’s not the point of this thread.

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Re: Atheistic Foundation of Objective Morality

Post #318

Post by AgnosticBoy »

The Tanager wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:03 pm I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “an amoral Universe”. I mean, as a theist, I would say that the non-human elements of the physical universe are amoral. I wouldn’t say that there is no morality in the universe. Do you mean either of those or something different?
An amoral Universe is an alternative to an objective moral system that views morality like a law of nature. I presume that is how objective morals would exist. In the Christian worldview, we have a moral Universe in that we are living in a Fallen world (the entire world is full of moral and natural evils) based on morality, particularly Adam's moral actions. In contrast, morality would not matter in any objective sense in an amoral Universe.
The Tanager wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:03 pmI think this is the problem with views like Wielenberg’s ‘godless normative realism’ which is a form of atheistic moral platonism. Even if “goodness” and “badness” existed, why would those attach to specific actions and not others and, even if they attached themselves to specific actions, what would that have to do with us?
There are a lot of content and steps that need to be logically accounted for there, and I've yet to see anything that doesn't boil down to sociocultural conditioning.
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Re: Atheistic Foundation of Objective Morality

Post #319

Post by JoeyKnothead »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:35 pm So, this would be a question to those who believe that objective morality can be founded upon an atheistic worldview. What is the objective foundation?
There is none.

All morality is subjective.
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Re: Atheistic Foundation of Objective Morality

Post #320

Post by Purple Knight »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:41 pmEven if an atheistic foundation for morality gives us objective morals, why would it be to do good? Any moral system would also have standards of evil, as well. So why not also do evil? Which are we supposed to do? If it is all about survival then I can think of plenty of evil acts that doesn't threaten that. Roman Empire lasted hundreds of years (longer than the United States, by far) while allowing the practice of pederasty and concubines.
The best I can do is declare the morality and survival equation consistent, and reduce it somewhat.

Where morality comes in is where people have become dependent on this particular moral system. We make a rule, no murdering, and prosper enormously. We build up a society on that foundation, which would cease to function if that pillar were removed.

So let's say someone wants to snuff out that pillar of light - kill that bonfire keeping us alive. He doesn't get to. Or at least, we have the right to stop him. If there is no morality then we get to play for our survival, any way we can, same as he does. And if there is morality and we're right then don't worry, he's wrong and can be prevented/punished.

We only have to worry if there is objective morality and we're just wrong about it.
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 3:48 amAll morality is subjective.
I would call that a moral statement that's non-subjective. Am I wrong?

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