Second gathering of Israel

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Revelations won
Sage
Posts: 830
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:13 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Second gathering of Israel

Post #1

Post by Revelations won »

The scriptures speak of a coming latter day when the Lord God of Israel will set his hand again the second time to gather all Israel and fulfill his promise that they shall again inherit the lands of their inheritance.

It is obvious that most of these mighty events are yet to be fulfilled.

How and in what manner will all this be accomplished?

How will the tribes of Israel be identified?

Who will gather them?

Where are they today?

Where are the ten lost tribes of Israel today?

Are we now living in the “DISPENSATION OF THE FULNESS OF TIMES”?

The following scriptures give an interesting introduction to the latter day gathering of the House of Israel.


Ephesians 1:
10
That in the "dispensation of the fulness of times" he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ezekiel 11:
14
Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
15
Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession.
16
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18
And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20
That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


Jeremiah 3:
17
At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

18
In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

Ezekiel 28:
25
Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob.
26
And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.


Ezekiel 37:
12
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13
And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.



21
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.


Ezekiel 39:

6
And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8
Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9
And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10
So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12
And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
13
Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
14
And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.


25
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26
After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27
When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28
Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29
Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Kind regards,
RW

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Collin: you seem to have a little duplification problem. Perhaps you might try deleting extra posts if they post in double (or triple).

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

collin88x
Student
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #32

Post by collin88x »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:14 am
collin88x wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:40 pm ... the term lost tribes was not referring to the Israelites not being known who they are. It was referring to them having no relationship with God anymore after God declared them no more his people. That's why they were "lost" or considered "gentiles".
If you are referring to Gods rejection of the Israelites, and the loss of their special relationship with Him, that happened, not with the jewish exile of the 6th century BCE but in 36CE. And this did not concern the ten tribes only but the entire 12 tribes as an idetifiable ethnic group

As of 36 CE all natural born Israelites, regardless of tribe, would indeed forever be considered as being part of a gentile nation and the only true "Israelites" woul be spiritual ones, born into their privileged positions through faith in Christ
Ummm ....no that's NOT biblical. I don't know where you're getting your info from. But I posted scripture to prove my point. You have not.

collin88x
Student
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #33

Post by collin88x »

collin88x wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:47 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:14 am
collin88x wrote: Thu Oct 06, 2022 1:40 pm ... the term lost tribes was not referring to the Israelites not being known who they are. It was referring to them having no relationship with God anymore after God declared them no more his people. That's why they were "lost" or considered "gentiles".
If you are referring to Gods rejection of the Israelites, and the loss of their special relationship with Him, that happened, not with the jewish exile of the 6th century BCE but in 36CE. And this did not concern the ten tribes only but the entire 12 tribes as an idetifiable ethnic group

As of 36 CE all natural born Israelites, regardless of tribe, would indeed forever be considered as being part of a gentile nation and the only true "Israelites" woul be spiritual ones, born into their privileged positions through faith in Christ
Ummm ....no that's NOT biblical. I don't know where you're getting your info from. But I posted scripture to prove my point. You have not.
It was never all Israelites .... that just meant that if one didn't accept Christ? They weren't regarded as an Israelite according to a covenant with God. Jews were regarded as gentiles too by being referred to as "Greeks" because they only spoke Greek and we're heavily involved in Greek customs and traditions..but even them were still allowed to return to God through Christ that's why it says "neither Jew or Greek "Greek speaking Jews" for you are all one nation to God when you are in Christ. Had nothing to do with other nations.

Paul explained that in Romans 9 stating not all Israel are israel.. meaning they have to be in christ. An Israelite has to be in Christ to be considered Israel according to the promise of God. The flesh don't matter if they dont accept Christ they have no sacrafice for their sins. God can't deal with them. but it's all Israel. Nothing to do with any other nations.

Yes I'm aware of Go ye and teach all nations. Again that's referring to finding those Israelites scattered abroad. Israelites we're amongst all nations, speaking all nations languages, practicing customs, using the names, ect.

Baptizing them meant "teaching them" the truth and the gospel of the new covenant in Christ for the nation of Israel.

Again I go back to Hosea which clearly shows that by the time of Christ? Israelites we're considered gentiles because God was not dealing with them during the old covenant anymore.

Hosea 1:5-9 (KJV) "And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

"But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, (Jews) and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen."

Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.

Then said God, Call his name Lo-ammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God."

God said Israel would not be his people. But Judah he would save.

That's not ALL ISRAEL so you have just quoted some very very foul information that is not lined up with the word of God. What are you doing brother?

God cut off the the northern kingdom Israelites tribes from the old covenant.

He remained with the Jews (southern Kingdom of Judah) through the prophecy of Christ.

Which means at the time of Christ? The northern kingdom Israelites were indeed considered gentiles in terms of the covenant with God and Israel.. until Christ death which ushered in a new covenant which granted those cut off Israelites a second chance to be called God's people "again".

Romans 9:24-25 (KJV) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, (Judah) but also of the Gentiles? (Northern kingdom)
As he saith also in Osee, (Hosea) I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Paul is referring to the scripture I just posted above in Hosea 1 where God referred to the kingdom of Israel as not his people and he not their God.

This is excluding the Jews. As God did not cut the Jews off. He remained with the Jews because Christ would come through the Jews to save the entire nation in the end.

You're fighting against the truth. And yes, with all due respect but you're wrong in saying all Israel were gentiles.

Listen to what you're saying? How could God promise the bloodline of Israel and forever promise? Then turn around and reject the entire nation in favor of everyone else? That makes ZERO sense. And goes against everything that makes God......God. what he says remains forever. There is no changing.

Malachi 3:6 (KJV) For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob (descendants of Israel) are not consumed.

there is no spiritual Israel man. You're going everywhere outside of the Bible and failing. And not even trying to deal with the scriptures presented because you know it's hard to refute.

Christ came to save the Israelites. Period. That's the "world God so loved" the world of the nation of Israel. Not all people.

That's not blasphemy to say neither. The evidence is there and the spiritual Israel doctrine makes no sense when you take in consideration the relationship between God and Israel and his promises to THEM the family he brought out of slavery in Egypt. (That's not all people)

Christ was a Jew. An Israelite from the tribe of Judah. His people were dived and fallen away from God. He was sent to rejuvenate the nation and bring them all back together before it really got real when they got kicked out of Jerusalem in 70 as for good until the second coming.

The old law of animal sacrafice was not going to save them with them being split up and scattered all over the earth in various captivities and under various governments and laws. Christ made it easier for them to come in his name and serve God correctly in the name of Christ.

Christ came in the nick of time with just enough time after he went on for Israel to gather themselves together in the new covenant and begin to pass it down the generations for the future.

But he came for his people. As Matthew 1 stated "save his people from their sins" his people are the Israelites not all people.

Israel is God's government over all nations.

Truthfully it goes like this.

God is the God of Israel
Israel is the god's over all nations in the future.

The nations are waiting for that transitional period to be conditioned and out into subjection to God's government.

The nations even under God's covenant of commandments. For example Israel can't eat pork in their diet. God commanded that they give it to the strangers (other nations) but they can't eat it.

God said he only knows Israel's family and therefore will judge them for their sins.

Christ "save his people from their sins".

It's not rocket science.... God does not have a relationship with any other nation outside of the bloodline of Israel.

This is excluding Israel because God loves Israel, he proclaimed his love for Israel and declared them to him a holy nation (bloodline) above all people)

Isaiah 40:15-17 (KJV) Behold, the nations (all races outside of Israel) are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. (Meaning there's nothing the nations can do to have God be their God)

All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity."


Sounds harsh but that's the BIBLE so don't flag me for posting what the Bible says. and explaining the proper context.

But it is what it is. All the nations can do is be humble and acknowledge Israel as God's people and try not to disrespect or harm them that belong to God. As it stated in Genesis bless those who bless Israel but curse those who curse Israel

Saying you're on the same equal level as them knowing God has declared multitude of times no you are not? That is a curse. That is pride, that is a lack of humility and when judgment comes if you have that in your heart? If any one for that matter has that in their heart in that day? You can forget even having a chance to live in the Kingdom of God. And survive Armageddon.

But finishing up one more point about Christ to drive the logic home.

Again. He's an Israelite gus people needed saving, not all people. His people were divided and scattered and lost in terms of a covenant with God. So he laid his life down to give them that chance at redemption and to again be heirs to the promise of God with Israel. which is rulership over his kingdom. Over all nations

Revelation 2:25-28 (KJV) "But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
And I will give him the morning star."

If he came to save all people? Then why is he referring to someone having rule over the nations? Thought we were all equal in Christ Jesus? Rule the nations for what?

Use your head. This is referring to the redeemed Israelites.

Now I'll leave you with this brother......Because if we're all equal? Then why does God have it out for one particular nation (bloodline).

Malachi 1:1-4 (KJV) "The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever."

Esau is the forefather of the Greeks/Romans/Italians/the entire Catholic religion, and European nations today aka Caucasians. Esau governs Europe and America. Today and was prophesied to be ruling (have the most power) as a nation in the last days. revelation 13 is about Europe and America. revelation 12 refers to king Herod as the great red dragon. (Esau is the father of Rome) Esau was born red skinned at birth (albino) Genesis 25:25

And his characteristics that his bloodline would have would be that the nation is a cunning Hunter and a man of the field. And Isaac blessed Esau after he blessed jaco with God's blessing. He states esau would have power in the earth too and control over the best lands in the earth "fatness of the earth will be your dwelling" and he said he will LIVE BY THE SWORD. meaning he would get his power by conquering nations and stealing land. He wasn't messed with his own land from God he had to take what he has today.

Esau according to Obadiah 1 exalts himself as an EAGLE and has a nest set among the stars in space. (NASA/America)

Many powerful caucasian European nations used the eagle, as their symbol and most popular today is America. But rome used the eagle, Spain used the eagle, few other European Caucasian nations and ofcourse america.

Cunning Hunter, man of the field, red skinned, and had to conquer nations to live and survive.

Sounds familiar.

Well God said that he isn't fond of them. And though they ruled once and he threw them down (ancient greco-Roman empire) they would return and rebuild (the Renaissance era) the desolate places. But in the end they would fall for good and the entire earth all nations for real. Will know God has hatred for that bloodline forever and Israel will be magnified in that day meaning all nations will bow to Christ and Israel and acknowledge their power and righteousness in the earth.

Point is Chest didn't come for all nations just Israel. And God hates Esau forever.... So Christ coming for all people don't fit if God hates a particular nation forever.

Don't even try to spiritualize it neither... Because now you're just trying to make your own Bible and that my friend is a snare.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #34

Post by JehovahsWitness »

collin88x wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:47 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:14 am
If you are referring to Gods rejection of the Israelites, and the loss of their special relationship with Him, that happened, not with the jewish exile of the 6th century BCE but in 36CE. And this did not concern the ten tribes only but the entire 12 tribes as an idetifiable ethnic group

As of 36 CE all natural born Israelites, regardless of tribe, would indeed forever be considered as being part of a gentile nation and the only true "Israelites" woul be spiritual ones, born into their privileged positions through faith in Christ
... I don't know where you're getting your info from.
IS IT TRUE THE ISRAELITES LOST THEIR SPIRITUAL INHERITANCE?
MATTHEW 21 : 43

This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits

DOES THE BIBLE INDICATE WHEN THIS WOULD HAPPEN ?
DANIEL 9:27

And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease


Image
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #35

Post by JehovahsWitness »

collin88x wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:33 pm How could God promise the bloodline of Israel and forever promise? Then turn around and reject the entire nation in favor of everyone else?

DID GOD BREAK HIS PROMISE TO ABRAHAM?

God is NOT obliged to keep people that are unfaithful simply because of their bloodline.
MATTHEW 3:9 - New Living Translation

Don’t just say to each other, ‘We’re safe, for we are descendants of Abraham.’ That means nothing, for I tell you, God can create children of Abraham from these very stones.
CONCLUSION God did not break his promise to Abraham, he kept it in an extraordinary way, namely by taking the "stones" of gentile non-bloodline people and declaring them the (spiritual) children of Abraham.



RELATED POSTS
Who was Paul usually referring to when he spoke of the "Greek"?
viewtopic.php?p=1094341#p1094341

By the Apostle Paul's day which Jews were "hellenized"?
viewtopic.php?p=1094350#p1094350

Did God break His promise to Abraham?
viewtopic.php?p=1094621#p1094621

How could a non-Isrelite be included in the Abrahamic promise?
viewtopic.php?p=1094365#p1094365

When did God permanently reject the 12 nations of Israel?
viewtopic.php?p=1094614#p1094614
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS , SPIRITUAL ISRAEL and ... THE 144, 000
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #36

Post by JehovahsWitness »

collin88x wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:33 pmRevelation 2:25-28 (KJV) "... to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron"

... why is he referring to someone having rule over the nations?
ARE ALL HUMANS EQUAL TO CHRIST?

Revelation 2 depicts the resurrected Jesus being given authority to crush the disobedients nations at what the bible refers to as Harmageddon. This will not mean the destruction if all human life on earth as that same book of Revelation, in its 7th chapter speaks of a "great crowd" people from all national groups surviving that event, to live on under Jesus rule.
collin88x wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:33 pm Thought we were all equal in Christ Jesus?
Nobody is equal in power, position or authority to Christ. When Paul said "there is neither Jew or Greek, male or female" he meant that thanks to the ransom sacrifice, born again Christians could become co-rulers WITH christ regardless of their skin colour, nationality or biological sex. In that way they are all regagarded by God as equal to each other.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #37

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DID JESUS COME TO SAVE PEOPLE FROM EVERY NATION OR JUST THE JEWS?

Image

Jesus was quite explicit on this, his mission was to save the world [cosmos] of mankind. While Jesus concentrated his preaching to his own nation, he commissioned his disciples to spread that message to those of other ethic groups (compare Matthew 28: 19, 20). This was because this blood sacrifice would open the way for anyone - regardless of skin colour, language or nationality- who put faith in him, to gain everlasting life.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

collin88x
Student
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #38

Post by collin88x »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:47 pm
collin88x wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:47 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:14 am
If you are referring to Gods rejection of the Israelites, and the loss of their special relationship with Him, that happened, not with the jewish exile of the 6th century BCE but in 36CE. And this did not concern the ten tribes only but the entire 12 tribes as an idetifiable ethnic group

As of 36 CE all natural born Israelites, regardless of tribe, would indeed forever be considered as being part of a gentile nation and the only true "Israelites" woul be spiritual ones, born into their privileged positions through faith in Christ
... I don't know where you're getting your info from.
IS IT TRUE THE ISRAELITES LOST THEIR SPIRITUAL INHERITANCE?
MATTHEW 21 : 43

This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits

DOES THE BIBLE INDICATE WHEN THIS WOULD HAPPEN ?
DANIEL 9:27

And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease


Image
No it's not true. The Jews did not lose anything. The northern kingdom lost their spiritual inheritance, not the Jews. God kept close to the Jews and brought Jesus through the Jews.

Daniel 9:27 is referring to the old covenant ending with Israel.

The old covenant was the law of animal sacrifice and gift offerings. For atonements and forgiveness of certain sins.

The old covenant however could not forgive Israel of ALL of their sins. In the old covenant certain sins like breaking the 10 commandments, or committing abominations like eating abominable foods (pork, shell fish, rabbit, ec ect) fornications like homosexuality, beastiality, orgies, lesbianism, adultery.

Ofcourse idolatry, breaking the Sabbath. Blasphemy Things like that Israelites were out to death for if found guilty. The law of the old covenant was capital punishment if found guilty of the sins God said you must surely die or you must be put to death.

No matter what perfect animal or gift they had, it could not save them from a death penalty judgment.

That's the old covenant and that's the laws Paul was referring to our "done away with" (not the commandments of God) but the ordinances of animal sacrifice and gift offerings. For various reasons God transitioned the law of sacrifice for sins into the sacrafice of Christ. God instead offered his sacrafice to Israel a perfect sinless Israelite man who should be right have never tasted death or pain for his perfection in the earth.

His death granted all Israel forgiveness of all sins whereas the old covenant did not. In Christ all sins against God's laws are forgiven of Israelites. Accept blasphemy of the holy ghost.

Christ also nailed to the cross the death penalty for sins too. Now only God can judge Israel (meaning capital punishment is done away with. There are no more stockings or executions as results of an Israelite breaking one of God's more important moral commandments.

God now grants Israel grace in the new covenant through Christ. He hides them time to clean up their act and gives them time to repent and change their ways eventually for good to inherit the kingdom.

That's the new covenant. No more animal sacrifice and gift offerings.

Christ is the sacrafice. Also Israel would brag amongst eachother in the old covenant about their animals and offerings being better then the next man or woman's. This is not what God enjoyed. Thats why after a while he said "sacrafice an animal? Thou willest not," he stated "I do not desire the blood of bulls and goats" which didn't change the hearts of the sinners of my people.

Christ sacrifice was supposed to really change them and put them back on the right path. Never the less. God said I give you Israelites my offering and sacrafice you accept it and you can have a relationship with me into inheritance over my kingdom. If you don't? You will remain curses until you die and you will not inherit glory in my kingdom..you
(Israelites) will not be a part of the glory of that day.

so essentially God was saying take it or leave it. He knows a remnant will accept and take it and run with it. That remnant he prophesied would be saved.

1/3rd of the nation of Israel will inherit the kingdom after Armageddon. 2/3rds will actually die and be cut off with the other nations during armageddon.

So my point is. You're referring to the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new. That still all pertains to Israel according to the flesh as Paul stated in Romans 9:1-5. "The covenants" pertain to Israel according to the flesh.

That's old and new. Animal sacrafice belonged to Israel in the flesh and now Christ sacrafice from God belongs to Israel in the flesh.

Christ bought them grace, mercy, forgiveness of all sins, and allowed the northern kingdom Israelites and the Greek speaking Jews (jews and "Greeks" (Greek speaking Jews) to all come back to God and his traditions and culture and ways in a new covenant which was his desire to bring all 12 tribes back together as one in Christ.

That was not referring to Israelites becoming gentiles. That was referring to the end of the old covenant which was animal sacrafice and death penalty for certain sins.

Matthew 21:43 was referring to the jews kingdom being tooken away as they knew it. Namely he was speaking to the heirarchy of Judah the scribes Sadducees and pharisees which were they who rejected Jesus of the Jews.

The kingdom as they it God was going to take away from them. The other nation (notice it said nation singular not nations plural)

That nation singular was referring to the northern kingdom. Northern kingdom was repented and we're ready for a second chance. After suffering their punishment of being a part from God. Whole certain Jews developed the big head because God stayed with them but they lost sight of his they truly were supposed to walk in the spirit. Christ came to unite all Israel in a new covenant which essentially would create a new nation of Israel for God. One that in Christ would grant them inheritance over the future kingdom coming to earth.

That "nation" had nothing to do with all gentiles outside of Israel in the flesh.

Remember Israel were split up into 2 nations. They were separate for centuries. the kingdom of Judah became the only Israelite nation with a kingdom and a relationship with God as God disbanded the northern kingdom from his old covenant. (the law of sacrifice and gift offerings) northern was not a part of any covenant with God for centuries.

All this time the Jews began to stray away from God themselves and fall away from the spirit. By making their own laws, killing their own people for breaking their own laws not the laws of God. Lying, and being petty and throwing rocks in a glass house knowing full well they've been committing sins themselves and we're not being judged for it.

Yes they would lose their kingdom as they knew it and all together eventually in 70 ad all Israel would lose their place in their own homeland as Rome would sack them and take many as slaves back to Rome while the rest fled into Europe, middle east and primarily down into Africa eventually migrating and settling in the west coast of Africa over the centuries.

But when he said give it to another nation he was referring to the northern kingdom. Who those Jews looked down on at the time and couldn't fathom a world where they were back together as their hearts were hardened for prophecies sake.

Christ was saying you're not the only one who can produce fruit. You forget there's 9 more tribes out there who desire this second chance. And they will produce fruit more then you and you're the leaders of the nation.

Eventually the Jews in Christ stepped their game up and the gentiles (Israelites) came back to the fold as a result and we're elated to hear the gospel (good news) of what Christ did for them to have a second chance with God and his promises of inheritance to the bloodline of all 12 tribes Israel who are in Christ.

Neither Jew nor Greek (Greek speaking Jews)
Or Jew or gentile (northern kingdom Israelites) they're all called to be the sons of God to rule the earth.

collin88x
Student
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2022 4:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #39

Post by collin88x »

collin88x wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:49 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:47 pm
collin88x wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:47 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:14 am
If you are referring to Gods rejection of the Israelites, and the loss of their special relationship with Him, that happened, not with the jewish exile of the 6th century BCE but in 36CE. And this did not concern the ten tribes only but the entire 12 tribes as an idetifiable ethnic group

As of 36 CE all natural born Israelites, regardless of tribe, would indeed forever be considered as being part of a gentile nation and the only true "Israelites" woul be spiritual ones, born into their privileged positions through faith in Christ
... I don't know where you're getting your info from.
IS IT TRUE THE ISRAELITES LOST THEIR SPIRITUAL INHERITANCE?
MATTHEW 21 : 43

This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits

DOES THE BIBLE INDICATE WHEN THIS WOULD HAPPEN ?
DANIEL 9:27

And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease


Image
No it's not true. The Jews did not lose anything pertaining to a COVENANT with God.. The northern kingdom lost their spiritual inheritance with God and their covenant (only for a time, not forever)

But not the Jews. God kept close to the Jews the whole way through the Jews were never disbanded from a covenant with God. Christ came through them. Jesus was brought through the Jews to the Jews for the Jews and not just the Jews only but the "gentiles" (northern kingdom Israelites) eventually after his mission unto the Jews were complete first.

I never understood the logic behind people saying the Jews rejected Christ so he just quit and now picked up gentiles in the flesh just because when they had nothing with God from the day he established his blessing over Jacob(Israel) and his bloodline.

Makes zero sense.

Who rejected Christ was the hierarchy of the Jews the priest and leaders and governing bodies over Judah kingdom. The rabbis and masters of the law. Causing the sheep to become lost and astray because they weren't feeding the flock correctly.

Many Jews accepted Christ cheerfully. So I cringe when I hear someone try to say all Jews rejected christ. To justify a spiritual Israel doctrine. Tells me they're unlearned in the history of the nation of israel in the Bible. They only read the new testament and are clueless to whats really going on.. and that's because all our lives were lied to and told God loves everybody and Jesus died for everybody. John 3:16. Not realizing John 3:16 is about the world of the Israelites according to Isaiah 45:17 and John 18:20. Old and new testament both refer to israelites as a "world" which means a society practicing the same things in a nutshell. Doesn't all the time mean "all people in the earth".

For example the animal world don't apply to us as humans. If you don't play or watch sports you don't apply to the sports world, music world, entertainment world, ect.


Israel is the world God loves as Israel he made a covenant with and commanded them to practice a holy separate tradition and culture from all nations. John 3:16 applies to all Israel. Not all people. Christ is taking to a fellow Jew "Nicodemus" in that chapter about previous events involving THEIR ANCESTORS with Moses in the wilderness with Israel and firery serpants that attacked and killed many Israelites because they spoke disrespectfully towards God and complaining and not trusting. Moses was commanded to make a brass snake and put it on a pole so anyone (whosoever) of the Israelites who looked upon it was healed.

This is in the book of numbers look it up. Moses and Israel and firery serpants book of numbers. Is what Christ was referencing to Nicodemus a fellow Jew Israelite. conversing about their ancestors and his reasons for why he's doing what he's doing that day with nicodemus.

Stating even I will have to lifted up for the people to heal them in the same manner Moses lifted up the serpent to heal Israel of their poison that looked upon it.

Whosoever.....is referring to within the house of Israel..

So again all Jews didn't reject Christ. Only certain Jews did but those certain and their followers had power to have him executed unlawfully.. out of envy and jealously because of his praise from the people of Israel (the Jews) they knew his following was getting strong.

All the people he did miracles on were Jews. The people he fed the multitude with bread and fish were Jews. Lazarus was a Jew. Everybody Christ dealt with and taught while he was alive were only Jews. As it is written "to the Jew first then the gentile" or "I will raise up
(wake up) the tents of Judah first"

With the exception of the Israelite woman of Canaan and the Israelites woman of Samaria. Which was to shine light on what's to come in the future unto that section of Israel who are the time had no covenant with God until Christ death granted them the opportunity.

In conclusion. Jews accepted Christ, many Jews. But it was the Jews in power that had the power to have him killed due to their connections with the Roman government.


Now Daniel 9:27 is referring to the old covenant ending with Israel.

The old covenant was the law of animal sacrifice and gift offerings. For atonements and forgiveness of certain sins.

The old covenant however could not forgive Israel of ALL of their sins. In the old covenant certain sins like breaking the 10 commandments, or committing abominations like eating abominable foods (pork, shell fish, rabbit, ec ect) fornications like homosexuality, beastiality, orgies, lesbianism, adultery.

Ofcourse idolatry, breaking the Sabbath. Blasphemy Things like that Israelites were out to death for if found guilty. The law of the old covenant was capital punishment if found guilty of the sins God said you must surely die or you must be put to death.

No matter what perfect animal or gift they had, it could not save them from a death penalty judgment.

That's the old covenant and that's the laws Paul was referring to our "done away with" (not the commandments of God) but the ordinances of animal sacrifice and gift offerings. For various reasons God transitioned the law of sacrifice for sins into the sacrafice of Christ. God instead offered his sacrafice to Israel a perfect sinless Israelite man who should be right have never tasted death or pain for his perfection in the earth.

His death granted all Israel forgiveness of all sins whereas the old covenant did not. In Christ all sins against God's laws are forgiven of Israelites. Accept blasphemy of the holy ghost.

Christ also nailed to the cross the death penalty for sins too. Now only God can judge Israel (meaning capital punishment is done away with. There are no more stockings or executions as results of an Israelite breaking one of God's more important moral commandments.

God now grants Israel grace in the new covenant through Christ. He hides them time to clean up their act and gives them time to repent and change their ways eventually for good to inherit the kingdom.

That's the new covenant. No more animal sacrifice and gift offerings.

Christ is the sacrafice. Also Israel would brag amongst eachother in the old covenant about their animals and offerings being better then the next man or woman's. This is not what God enjoyed. Thats why after a while he said "sacrafice an animal? Thou willest not," he stated "I do not desire the blood of bulls and goats" which didn't change the hearts of the sinners of my people.

Christ sacrifice was supposed to really change them and put them back on the right path. Never the less. God said I give you Israelites my offering and sacrafice you accept it and you can have a relationship with me into inheritance over my kingdom. If you don't? You will remain curses until you die and you will not inherit glory in my kingdom..you
(Israelites) will not be a part of the glory of that day.

so essentially God was saying take it or leave it. He knows a remnant will accept and take it and run with it. That remnant he prophesied would be saved.

1/3rd of the nation of Israel will inherit the kingdom after Armageddon. 2/3rds will actually die and be cut off with the other nations during armageddon.

So my point is. You're referring to the end of the old covenant and the beginning of the new. That still all pertains to Israel according to the flesh as Paul stated in Romans 9:1-5. "The covenants" pertain to Israel according to the flesh.

That's old and new. Animal sacrafice belonged to Israel in the flesh and now Christ sacrafice from God belongs to Israel in the flesh.

Christ bought them grace, mercy, forgiveness of all sins, and allowed the northern kingdom Israelites and the Greek speaking Jews (jews and "Greeks" (Greek speaking Jews) to all come back to God and his traditions and culture and ways in a new covenant which was his desire to bring all 12 tribes back together as one in Christ.

That was not referring to Israelites becoming gentiles. That was referring to the end of the old covenant which was animal sacrafice and death penalty for certain sins.

Matthew 21:43 was referring to the jews kingdom being tooken away as they knew it. Namely he was speaking to the heirarchy of Judah the scribes Sadducees and pharisees which were they who rejected Jesus of the Jews.

The kingdom as they it God was going to take away from them. The other nation (notice it said nation singular not nations plural)

That nation singular was referring to the northern kingdom. Northern kingdom was repented and we're ready for a second chance. After suffering their punishment of being a part from God. Whole certain Jews developed the big head because God stayed with them but they lost sight of his they truly were supposed to walk in the spirit. Christ came to unite all Israel in a new covenant which essentially would create a new nation of Israel for God. One that in Christ would grant them inheritance over the future kingdom coming to earth.

That "nation" had nothing to do with all gentiles outside of Israel in the flesh.

Remember Israel were split up into 2 nations. They were separate for centuries. the kingdom of Judah became the only Israelite nation with a kingdom and a relationship with God as God disbanded the northern kingdom from his old covenant. (the law of sacrifice and gift offerings) northern was not a part of any covenant with God for centuries.

All this time the Jews began to stray away from God themselves and fall away from the spirit. By making their own laws, killing their own people for breaking their own laws not the laws of God. Lying, and being petty and throwing rocks in a glass house knowing full well they've been committing sins themselves and we're not being judged for it.

Yes they would lose their kingdom as they knew it and all together eventually in 70 ad all Israel would lose their place in their own homeland as Rome would sack them and take many as slaves back to Rome while the rest fled into Europe, middle east and primarily down into Africa eventually migrating and settling in the west coast of Africa over the centuries.

But when he said give it to another nation he was referring to the northern kingdom. Who those Jews looked down on at the time and couldn't fathom a world where they were back together as their hearts were hardened for prophecies sake.

Christ was saying you're not the only one who can produce fruit. You forget there's 9 more tribes out there who desire this second chance. And they will produce fruit more then you and you're the leaders of the nation.

Eventually the Jews in Christ stepped their game up and the gentiles (Israelites) came back to the fold as a result and we're elated to hear the gospel (good news) of what Christ did for them to have a second chance with God and his promises of inheritance to the bloodline of all 12 tribes Israel who are in Christ.

Neither Jew nor Greek (Greek speaking Jews)
Or Jew or gentile (northern kingdom Israelites) they're all called to be the sons of God to rule the earth.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21073
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 790 times
Been thanked: 1114 times
Contact:

Re: Second gathering of Israel

Post #40

Post by JehovahsWitness »

collin88x wrote: Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:49 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 9:47 pm
collin88x wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:47 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:14 am
If you are referring to Gods rejection of the Israelites, and the loss of their special relationship with Him, that happened, not with the jewish exile of the 6th century BCE but in 36CE. And this did not concern the ten tribes only but the entire 12 tribes as an idetifiable ethnic group

As of 36 CE all natural born Israelites, regardless of tribe, would indeed forever be considered as being part of a gentile nation and the only true "Israelites" woul be spiritual ones, born into their privileged positions through faith in Christ
... I don't know where you're getting your info from.
IS IT TRUE THE ISRAELITES LOST THEIR SPIRITUAL INHERITANCE?
MATTHEW 21 : 43

This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits

DOES THE BIBLE INDICATE WHEN THIS WOULD HAPPEN ?
DANIEL 9:27

And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease


Image

Daniel 9:27 is referring to the old covenant ending with Israel.
No, the covenant that continued for a week was not the Mosaic law covenant. How do we know? Notice what Paul wrote
COLOSSIANS 2:14- NWT

... erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake [various other translations say CROSS].

The Abrahamic covenant did not have decrees, it was a verbal not a written agreement. So the covenant thay ended with Christ's death must be referring to the Mosaic Law covenant. But notice Daniel says a covenant (obviously a different one since the Mosaic covenant ended at the 69th week) ...another different covenant which had been in force paralell to the "first" continued.

Paul explained in detail how the Abrahamic promise did not need the law covenant to exist since it was faith based. The Abrahamic promise was given before the law and extended (continued) after it. HOWEVER - and this is the point - for the Israelites (all 12 tribes) it would be exclusive only for one week (7 years) after which they (natural born Israelites, regardless of their tribe) would lose the exclusivity of their special standing with God.





JW
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS , SPIRITUAL ISRAEL and ... THE 144, 000
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Oct 08, 2022 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Post Reply