Is this it for creationism?

[Jose Fly]

For the last few years or so I've noticed a decided decline in the number of people trying to advocate and/or defend creationism online. Not only that, I've also noticed a definite decline in the quality of arguments they put forth, and that many of the ones who are left seem to mostly argue via empty assertions.

I believe both stem from the same overall cause....creationist organizations really don't have any new arguments.

To illustrate the above, consider Talk Origin's "Index to Creationist Claims". Note that it was last updated sixteen years ago (2006) and how it still pretty much covers just about every argument you can expect to see an internet creationist make, even today.

This tells me that creationist organizations really don't have any new arguments, and because of that, online creationists have nothing new to present and therefore are reduced to relying mostly on argument via assertion.

Question for debate: Am I missing some new creationist arguments, or is what we've been seeing from creationists over the last sixteen years all they have?

Subquestion for creationists: Given that the arguments in the TO Index have not had any impact on science, do y'all have any expectations that repeating those arguments will change anything?

[Inquirer]

You really do need to understand that the different interpretations of quantum physics are equally close, they use the same mathematics, exactly the same yet they are fundamentally different in the nature of reality they describe.

I get the impression you are uncomfortable with the question though and that's OK I would be too if I held the simplistic views about science that you do, in fact I once did.

You're not really making much sense here, especially in the context of the topic of this thread. AFAICT, no one is disputing that there are different interpretations in quantum physics.

I get it, your obvioulsy unfamiliar with these aspects of science, yet you do profess to understand it - very odd.

The subject is reality and models of reality, isn't that what were just talking about?

Okay, and to stay in on-topic, are there any creationist models of reality?

Sorry Jose, if you want to avoid serious discussion by whining that I'm off topic as soon as you get yourself into a muddle, then do so, I have not time for this silliness.

[Jose Fly]

I get it, your obvioulsy unfamiliar with these aspects of science, yet you do profess to understand it - very odd.

Again, you're not making the slightest bit of sense (except in one way).

Sorry Jose, if you want to avoid serious discussion by whining that I'm off topic as soon as you get yourself into a muddle, then do so, I have not time for this silliness.

I see now how your last few posts sort of make sense. The topic of this thread is the fact that creationists haven't offered any new arguments in at least 16 years and as a result are reduced to repeating old arguments that never accomplished anything scientific.

You would rather avoid that reality, so you've been trying to divert the thread in all sorts of directions, but I've not been falling for that and have been insisting on staying on topic. And now that your diversion tactics have failed, you resort to petty insults, stomping your feet, and running away.

Such is the nature of creationism....when reality isn't what you want and people aren't going along with your arguments, throw a tantrum and leave.

[brunumb]

I can show that the belief in a created universe inspired numerous lines of scientific inquiry.

OK then, go ahead and show it. It will be interesting to also see how the scientific inquiry was subsequently carried out.

[Inquirer]

I can show that the belief in a created universe inspired numerous lines of scientific inquiry.

OK then, go ahead and show it. It will be interesting to also see how the scientific inquiry was subsequently carried out.

No, because no matter what is presented to you, you will never understand it, because everything you see and hear has to be forced into your worldview, that worldview is your God, it is so important to you that the prospect of change, of admitting error is unbearable.

One's God is what one is devoted to, and you are devoted to scientism and I can't change that, that's your problem for you to work out.

[brunumb]

I can show that the belief in a created universe inspired numerous lines of scientific inquiry.

OK then, go ahead and show it. It will be interesting to also see how the scientific inquiry was subsequently carried out.

No, because no matter what is presented to you, you will never understand it, because everything you see and hear has to be forced into your worldview, that worldview is your God, it is so important to you that the prospect of change, of admitting error is unbearable.

One's God is what one is devoted to, and you are devoted to scientism and I can't change that, that's your problem for you to work out.

OK. Just another unsupported claim then. Nothing new.

Meanwhile the God you are devoted to requires massive denial of science in order for it to even get a place at the table. An old collection of anonymous tales is all he has to prop up his existence, but I guess that must be enough for some people.

[Inquirer]

I can show that the belief in a created universe inspired numerous lines of scientific inquiry.

OK then, go ahead and show it. It will be interesting to also see how the scientific inquiry was subsequently carried out.

No, because no matter what is presented to you, you will never understand it, because everything you see and hear has to be forced into your worldview, that worldview is your God, it is so important to you that the prospect of change, of admitting error is unbearable.

One's God is what one is devoted to, and you are devoted to scientism and I can't change that, that's your problem for you to work out.

OK. Just another unsupported claim then. Nothing new.

You are the one seeking support, evidence, but you can't see what is plainly true because your God - scientism - tells you what to believe and you obey your God, you believe lies, you are enslaved and don't know you are enslaved, this is the truth.

[brunumb]

You are the one seeking support, evidence, but you can't see what is plainly true because your God - scientism - tells you what to believe and you obey your God, you believe lies, you are enslaved and don't know you are enslaved, this is the truth.

Let me fix that for you.

You are the one seeking support, evidence, but you can't see what is plainly true because your God tells you what to believe and you obey your God, you believe lies, you are enslaved and don't know you are enslaved, this is the truth.

In other words, that was not a great argument. But then I am convinced that you don't have one.

[Inquirer]

You are the one seeking support, evidence, but you can't see what is plainly true because your God - scientism - tells you what to believe and you obey your God, you believe lies, you are enslaved and don't know you are enslaved, this is the truth.

Let me fix that for you.

You are the one seeking support, evidence, but you can't see what is plainly true because your God tells you what to believe and you obey your God, you believe lies, you are enslaved and don't know you are enslaved, this is the truth.

In other words, that was not a great argument. But then I am convinced that you don't have one.

It wasn't an argument it is a fact. You have no idea why anything is what it is, why you exist, why the universe exists, why there are laws in nature, it is a mystery to you. I do know though. You ask for evidence and cannot understand because you believe the lie there is no God. God is the only explanation yet you prefer to believe the lie.

So long as you embrace this irrational lie you'll never recognize the evidence that's all around you and therefore there's no point showing you evidence, all evidence is rejected because you prefer the lie, you despise God and cannot understand these things because your starting point for your worldview is a lie.

Everything I say to you is true, yet your blindness prevents you from seeing, you worship scientism so anything that conflicts with scientism is rejected, it isn't evidence you need but help.

[brunumb]

You are the one seeking support, evidence, but you can't see what is plainly true because your God - scientism - tells you what to believe and you obey your God, you believe lies, you are enslaved and don't know you are enslaved, this is the truth.

Let me fix that for you.

You are the one seeking support, evidence, but you can't see what is plainly true because your God tells you what to believe and you obey your God, you believe lies, you are enslaved and don't know you are enslaved, this is the truth.

In other words, that was not a great argument. But then I am convinced that you don't have one.

It wasn't an argument it is a fact. You have no idea why anything is what it is, why you exist, why the universe exists, why there are laws in nature, it is a mystery to you. I do know though.

No you don't. Sheer hubris.

You ask for evidence and cannot understand because you believe the lie there is no God. God is the only explanation yet you prefer to believe the lie.

God is merely an invented explanation. Make up a magical being that can do anything and you suddenly have have an answer to every question without actually having any answers at all. Please don't pretend to read my mind. I have no preference regarding the existence of gods. They make no difference to me whatsoever.

So long as you embrace this irrational lie you'll never recognize the evidence that's all around you and therefore there's no point showing you evidence, all evidence is rejected because you prefer the lie, you despise God and cannot understand these things because your starting point for your worldview is a lie.

More Christian mind reading on display. Maybe the explanation is that the attempted indoctrination in my childhood failed.

Everything I say to you is true, yet your blindness prevents you from seeing, you worship scientism so anything that conflicts with scientism is rejected, it isn't evidence you need but help.

Once again, sheer hubris. I worship nothing. I regard worship as one of the most worthless activities anyone can engage in. And to cap off your diatribe we get the ad hominem, the last refuge of a scoundrel as they say.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Inquirer in post #28]

You have no idea why anything is what it is, why you exist, why the universe exists, why there are laws in nature, it is a mystery to you.

Why does there have to be a "why" for any of this? Some things we simply don't understand yet. The universe materialized and stars, planets, comets, etc. all eventually came into existence. Whether we understand the detailed mechanims behind this is irrelvant ... it happened. There doesn't need to be any reason for "why" the universe exists (unless it is to support the existence of some imaginary god). I exist because my parents reproduced, there is no need for any other explanation. Humans exist for the same reason every other living thing exists ... the result of reproduction. It isn't complicated.

I do know though.

You obviously think you do ... no different than any other believer in gods who conveniently use them as explanations for things that they don't understand or can't explain otherwise.

So long as you embrace this irrational lie you'll never recognize the evidence that's all around you and therefore there's no point showing you evidence ...

As you constantly say ... it is interpretation of the evidence that counts. You obviously believe that your own personal interpretation is the only one that can possibly be correct. After all, you claim "I do know though" as if that were the last word on the subject. You don't know, you believe.

... you despise God ...

For many atheists (like myself), there are no feelings towards god beings one way or the other. I don't believe they exist simply because I've never seen any convincing evidence that they do exist, and they aren't needed to explain nature or anything else. It is as simple as that. If it turns out gods do actually exist ... great. I'd love to have the chance at eternal life in some heaven-like place. But I believe that is a fairy tale and humans don't have afterlives any more than plants or ants. There's simply no evidence that any such thing is actually true.

Everything I say to you is true ...

Sure it is ... if only you could demonstrate it behind just stating the claims. There are people who are absolutely convinced the Earth is flat and insist that everyone else believe the "evidence" that is all around them, and get defensive when they don't. How is your stance any different?