Materialism cannot account for Awareness

[AquinasForGod]

I am putting this argument in philosophy because it appeals to metaphysics.

My question for debate is: What is the metaphysical ground for consciousness if we are limited to materialism?

This argument doesn’t really work if you outright reject PPC.
PPC – Principle of Proportionate Causality.
This basically means that whatever is in the effect must in some way be in the cause. An example would be if I am the cause of your receiving $20, I must have had $20 in some way. I could have had it on person, such as in my wallet. But I could have had it in a more virtual way such as in my bank account. So although I did not physically possess a $20 bill, I did have access to it in my bank account.

I would also be the efficient cause because the government gave me the right to print $20 as legal money. Then even though I do not have a $20 bill in my wallet or on me in any way, and even though I do not have $20 in the bank, or I have nothing worth $20, I have the power granted by the government to make $20.

I did not have $20 is any of these ways or any way at all, then I could not have been the cause of your receiving $20. If you claimed I was the cause, you would be incorrect.
With that out of the way, let’s get into it.

If you prefer a more detailed visual version of this type of argument here is a video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHolDFVeG3k If videos are not allowed, please do let me know. Some forums are against it but I did not see it in the rules.

So, the universe, whatever it is will have fundamental properties. By fundamental, I mean something like primary substance. Maybe an electron is a fundamental property in the world, charge.
These fundamental properties will have properties, whatever they are. This can be hypothetical. Put together whatever properties you believe to exist, say charge, attraction, repulsion, space, change, etc.
Then find a way to logically, using just these properties, account for simple awareness.

If you posit that awareness or consciousness is one of the fundamental properties, then you are not a materialist. You are some sort of panpsychist.
Imagine if I said that if I put enough of the property BLUE together in just the right combination and under the right pressure and temperature, I get a diamond. That doesn’t follow at all.
However, we can account for emergent properties like wetness.

Wetness is found in the parts because there is liquid nitrogen and oxygen, but more so because wetness is just attraction. The molecules of water have an attraction to the surface of say your skin, and some stick to your skin. This is what makes it wet. Attraction would be a fundamental property in the physical world.

This cannot be done to account for consciousness or even simple awareness, so materialism fails.
Maybe I am wrong and you will be able to account for awareness starting from whatever base properties you claim exist in the material world.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Tcg in post #10]

Thank you. I am new so still learning how to properly structure my posts.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #10]

Thank you. I am new so still learning how to properly structure my posts.

You're welcome. You resolved it perfectly by including a question for debate. That is one of the key issues. You'll get the hang of it. Just review the rules from time to time and that'll help.


Tcg

[wannabe]

[Replying to AquinasForGod in post #1]

Thank you again for the topic.
I like your post - It's just another example of how inefficiently man is at scientific explanation when it comes to the big questions.
Science says, still looking, where as God as opposed to science (regarding awareness), is the answer.
I find it hard to imagine how awareness manifested without a brain, or how or why a brain evolved to such a point where awareness initiated.
I can't say what the first instance of awareness might have been, or how a first stimuli may have interacted with an evolved non-functioning brain, or what the first evolutionary response may have been.(regarding the possible evolution of man)
But I do know, bodily awareness requires a brain.(and I don't think they are one and the same)
I think awareness is the equivalent of the spirit, no argument there, as iv'e proven the existence of the spirit in a topic I previously posted,:"Are we alive within ourselves."(Philosophy)

[Inquirer]

I am putting this argument in philosophy because it appeals to metaphysics.

My question for debate is: What is the metaphysical ground for consciousness if we are limited to materialism?

I don't understand what you're asking here, the term "metaphysics" spans several definitions and has several philosophical meanings it seems to me.

Are you asking "can consciousness be explained in material terms?" or something else?

[AquinasForGod]

I am putting this argument in philosophy because it appeals to metaphysics.

My question for debate is: What is the metaphysical ground for consciousness if we are limited to materialism?

I don't understand what you're asking here, the term "metaphysics" spans several definitions and has several philosophical meanings it seems to me.

Are you asking "can consciousness be explained in material terms?" or something else?

Metaphysics as in first principles. So explaining awareness logically starting from whatever you believe are the core principles, be that attraction, charge, or whatever you like.

[Inquirer]

I am putting this argument in philosophy because it appeals to metaphysics.

My question for debate is: What is the metaphysical ground for consciousness if we are limited to materialism?

I don't understand what you're asking here, the term "metaphysics" spans several definitions and has several philosophical meanings it seems to me.

Are you asking "can consciousness be explained in material terms?" or something else?

Metaphysics as in first principles. So explaining awareness logically starting from whatever you believe are the core principles, be that attraction, charge, or whatever you like.

Alright, well I am of the opinion that awareness, consciousness, will is a first principle, the age old question of "explaining" it is in my opinion a huge error.

I'm not a philosophical materialist any more so do not seek a materialist explanation for consciousness and indeed there are none so far as I'm aware.

Consciousness - God's "will" - is the origin of everything else yet people stumble around struggling to "explain" the source of the creation in terms of the products of creation, they assume reductionism can always be applied, that literally everything can be reduced.

This is why I use the term "scientism" a lot here in this forum, many of those who advocate science and materialism as the route to knowledge go beyond what is justifiable and presume that everything can be explained that way, this is a belief, a faith in science, "scientism" and this has begun to pervade science education which will be to the detriment of Western civilization.