How far have we fallen?

[Revelations won]

How Far Have We Fallen?

The apostle Paul gave the following prophesy and warning to us living in the last days:

2 Timothy 3:
1
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Are we living today in perilous times?

Has society largely forgotten to keep the Sabbath day holy?

Has society today fulfilled Paul’s Prophesy listed above?

Best regards,
RW

[JehovahsWitness]

Are not the words you quoted from 2 TIMOTHY 31-5 those of Paul? ...

I was quoting Paul in the context of the entire biblical narritive; I take a holistic approach to scripture as did Jesus and evidently Paul himself who frequently based their conclusion on various scriptural sources.

if they apply equally as well to past societies then why consider our current society to be singled out?

See above.



JW




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[theophile]

And just so there's no doubt about what is meant by "generation."

generation
noun: generation; plural noun: generations
1. all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively.
source: Oxford Languages

A failed prophesy for sure, and if Jesus couldn't get it right why believe Paul could?

.

Do you think the gospel writers used the Oxford dictionary when they composed their stories? At least go to the source language if you're going to make an argument like that, and understand the full semantic range of the word.

In this case:
γενεᾱ́ (geneā́) f (genitive γενεᾶς);

• birth

• race, descent

• generation

• offspring

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%C ... ient_Greek

i.e., There is sufficient range here to think that by 'generation' Jesus meant more than those living at the time. Which doesn't mean you're wrong, but that it's not an open-shut case as you make it out.

Assuming the scholars and translators of the Bible were translating for today's English reading audience and would use words that spoke to this audience why should I care what some ancient writer wrote? The intent of ancient writers would have been taken care of in the translation. If we can't trust what has been translated into English what can we trust? I ask because you seem to think you, I, and everyone else can do a better job of correctly translating scripture than the scholars and translators whose job it is to correctly do just that. Sorry, but I think this is hubris gone amuck, or you're using such a stratagem as a ploy to promote your own theology.

What the Bible says in English can only be read and understood within the meanings of the English vocabulary and its definitions.


.

Have you ever heard the concept 'lost in translation'? You should care because you're making a strong conclusion here about what that writer meant.

The only thing I've concluded is that educated scholars and translators have a far better chance of correctly interpreting old scripture than Christian laymen or any one else not schooled in theology and ancient languages. AND, that you believe theologically impoverished Christian dilettantes are better equipped to do so.

My money is on the scholars. . . . . . . . every time.

.

There are different types of scholars and scholarship. There are scholars who focus on translation, and choosing the best words possible to capture the meaning and range of the original Hebrew. Which you are valuing. There are also scholars who aren't limited by translation and who focus on the original Hebrew itself, or at least consider it, because everyone knows the translation is limited, and meaning is necessarily lost in that process.

There are also those who look at the historical context, or church doctrine, or who do more pure theology / philosophy. Which means part of scholarship means understanding or at least recognizing that these other branches exist, what role they play, and how they all roughly fit together.

So I agree with you 100% we should put our money here. On all scholarship that is and not just the one branch constrained by translation.