Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

[Rational Atheist]

Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.

1. Our thoughts determine our choices.

2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.

3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.

I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.

[Seek]

I believe the current consensus of science is that free will doesn't exist.

[Miles]

I believe the current consensus of science is that free will doesn't exist.

In as much as free will is not a scientific issue why should anyone care what the consensus of scientists is? May as well poll butchers or child molesters.

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[The Tanager]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

What is your support for all mental states being caused by brain states (if I understood what you meant above correctly)?

[William]

Perhaps Free Will, is the ability to tell ones brain what to think

[Kylie]

By your logic, though, Two-Face has free will. He lets random chance determine his choices. He does so consciously. He has free will according to what I think you're saying here because his ultimate choice is random. Shall I head to Kum and Go or 7-11? *flips coin* Ah, 7-11. That's a pity because their stuff isn't as good, but oh well. The coin is the coin.

No. The outcome of the coin flip has obvious physical causes, so clearly that's not a free choice either. Not to mention, the very idea of flipping a coin is determined by a thought, so this scenario is actually covered by my original argument also.

Are you suggesting that, given enough knowledge about the universe and sufficient computational power, that all future events can be predicted?

[Kylie]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

Is everything in the world deterministic?

As in, if you had sufficiently detailed knowledge about the state of the universe and sufficient computational power, could you determine with exact precision what some future state of the universe will be?

[Kylie]

Nope. Choice is a conscious decision. Consciousness involves thought. Thus in order to choose your thoughts, you would have to think them before you think them, which is logically impossible.

So, why did you choose A over B?


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Because of a thought that appeared in my conscious mind for some reason that is entirely outside of my control.

Such a thing can't really be called "your choice" though, can it?

[Miles]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

Is everything in the world deterministic?

Yes.

As in, if you had sufficiently detailed knowledge about the state of the universe and sufficient computational power,

Such as an omniscient and omnipotent god? Yes, I believe I . . . .

could . . . determine with exact precision what some future state of the universe will be.

.

[Kylie]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

Is everything in the world deterministic?

Yes.

As in, if you had sufficiently detailed knowledge about the state of the universe and sufficient computational power,

Such as an omniscient and omnipotent god? Yes, I believe I . . . .

could . . . determine with exact precision what some future state of the universe will be.

.

So, just to be very clear about this, you are claiming that you can examine the universe as it is right now and predict EXACTLY what is going to happen on January 1 in 2023, including what I have for breakfast. Is that right?

[Miles]

Mental states are brain states, or at least tied directly to the brain.
Brain states are biological states.
Biological states are physical states.
The physical world is deterministic.
Thus, there are no free choices.

Is everything in the world deterministic?

Yes.

As in, if you had sufficiently detailed knowledge about the state of the universe and sufficient computational power,

Such as an omniscient and omnipotent god? Yes, I believe I . . . .

could . . . determine with exact precision what some future state of the universe will be.

.

So, just to be very clear about this, you are claiming that you can examine the universe as it is right now and predict EXACTLY what is going to happen on January 1 in 2023, including what I have for breakfast. Is that right?

IF I was omniscient and omnipotent like god, i.e. I knew e v e r y t h i n g and could put it all together.


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