Who would the antichrist fool?

[Athetotheist]

"....and all the world wondered after the beast." (Rev. 13:3)

The antichrist is supposed to fool everyone----except true Christians----into worshipping him.

How well would that work out? Would he be able to fool.....

Jews? Judaism holds that only God is to be worshipped and that God does not take any physical form. Worship of any human being is considered blasphemous idolatry, and any wonders the antichrist performed would be interpreted as the workings of a false teacher sent by God to test the Jewish people.

Muslims? Islam also teaches that God takes no physical form, so they too would instantly peg the antichrist as a phony.

Feminist Pagans would reject any god-claim which didn't acknowledge the Goddess.

Atheists would suspect any miracle of being either a trick or a coincidence. An "image of the beast" brought to life could be taken for an artificial intelligence project.

The god-claim of the antichrist being fundamentally incompatible with so many beliefs, who would be left for the antichrist to fool?

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #77

Why do some theists think they can speak for atheists?

Why do some atheists get all defensive even when theists are trying to give them credit for something?

I'm not defensive at all. I've pointed out the fallacy of you speaking on behalf of atheists and misrepresenting us.

Misrepresenting you?

Yep. That's exactly what you have done.


Tcg

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Tcg in post #77

Why do some theists think they can speak for atheists?

Why do some atheists get all defensive even when theists are trying to give them credit for something?

I'm not defensive at all. I've pointed out the fallacy of you speaking on behalf of atheists and misrepresenting us.

Misrepresenting you?

Yep. That's exactly what you have done.

What verifiable evidence can you produce that I've misrepresented you?

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #77

Why do some theists think they can speak for atheists?

Why do some atheists get all defensive even when theists are trying to give them credit for something?

I'm not defensive at all. I've pointed out the fallacy of you speaking on behalf of atheists and misrepresenting us.

Misrepresenting you?

Yep. That's exactly what you have done.

What verifiable evidence can you produce that I've misrepresented you?

I've already provided it. It's a direct quote from you:

"Atheists would suspect any miracle of being either a trick or a coincidence."

This does not represent my position at all. As I explained previously, verifiable evidence needs to be presented. If any attempt is done to do so I will examine it fairly. What have you?


Tcg

[tam]

Peace to you,

I have not read through the thread, just the first response, and I am going to agree with one thing that JW said: Rev 13:3 is speaking about the beast that comes out of the sea (and Christendom has just made this about "the antichrist".)

"....and all the world wondered after the beast." (Rev. 13:3)

The antichrist is supposed to fool everyone----except true Christians----into worshipping him. How well would that work out? Would he be able to fool.....

Most everyone. The beast that comes up out of the sea has fooled most everyone. It is not a person. It is a beast (an entity) with seven heads.

The beast that comes up out of the sea is religion. (This is something my Lord has confirmed to me, so that it is not my knowledge or wisdom, but rather, His.)


How many people follow religion? Listen to religion? Wonder after religion? Obey and love, sacrifice TO (sacrifice time and money, and family, even one's own children), recruit people to join the religion (rather than pointing them toward Christ)? How many spend their time defending the wrongs (deeds and teachings) of their religion, bearing witness to their RELIGION, rather than bearing witness to Christ and God.

How many here have wondered if religion can be fought against, if it can ever be defeated?

So lets look at the passage:

The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

The dragon is the Adversary (Rev 20:2; 12:9)

So the Adversary is the one giving the beast his power and throne and authority. Well, the Adversary is the 'god of this world' (2 Corinthians 4:4). And most of you must realize that religion is very much a part of this world, a major influence in this world, and responsible for many atrocities... including the persecution of those who belong to Christ and to God (Rev 12:17). The Adversary is the one doing that persecution, and using religion to do it with. When it was legal, by physically murdering so-called heretics/apostates (even though the religion itself is the apostate). More often today at least, by casting people out of the 'synagogues' (via ex-communication. Or in the case of a few denominations today, via shunning and disfellowshipping <- something religion can fool people into justifying by emphasizing that this 'casting out' is for bad behavior alone. All the while ignoring or sweeping under the rug any incidents where it is actually just about openly disagreeing with a teaching in the religion itself, including teachings and behaviors that are not true, that go against Christ.)

(Important to note perhaps: the only religion given and sanctioned by God was the Temple/Priesthood/law system that He gave to Israel through Moses - though men corrupted it time and again, and also used it to persecute the Messiah - the One to whom they were supposed to listen - and any who followed Him.)

Christ did not form any religion though. Christianity (speaking of the religion, and not of the faith in Christ and His Father) does not get its authority from Christ or from God. Christ did not form a new religion, nor did he reform an old religion. He said that the true worshipers that God desires would worship - not on 'this mountain or that mountain', but in spirit and in truth. Through Him (the Truth).

Religion is being used to stop people from coming to God (by misleading them into the religion instead and thinking that is the same as being in God; and/or by causing people to turn away from God because of the lies and hypocrisy rampant IN the religion that FALSELY claims to represent God and/or His Son).

3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

How many have wondered if religion can be defeated, fought against?

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

We can know for a FACT that religion speaks lies and blasphemies against God. We can know this for a fact simply because there are so many competing religions that say different things about God and His Son, even just in Christendom; and of course we can hold up the saying and teachings and deeds of religion against the LIGHT (the LIGHT who is CHRIST).

Religion teaches the terrible lie that God is going to burn people alive in hell for all eternity. That message is sometimes softened as of late (because that message is driving people away, and that means less money, less power - so that it is not about truth, but rather about what 'works' to keep people in religion).

Religion teaches that everyone other than Christians are going to 'hell' (whatever version they teach of 'hell'). That too is a lie.

Religion persecutes and forces people to 'convert'. God does not do that. Or there would be no reason for this forum to exist.

Religion has tortured people in the name of God, sacrificed children in the name of God, gone to war in the name of God, etc, etc... though in actual fact men are using religion to get people to do these things. It is not in the name of God; it is in the name of religion.

Religion has abused (physically, spiritually, emotionally, sexually) children and covered that abuse up. God has nothing to do with that.

Religion (one in particular) teaches that Christ is actually Abaddon (Death, the Destroyer), and they outright claim Abaddon/Appolyon (the King of the Abyss, Death, the Destroyer) as their king.

So don't tell me that the Adversary does not know how to fool people into worshiping him via the beast. That last example is so obvious to me - Christ, the TRUE Christ, is the LIFE - but the people who have accepted it don't even SEE it.

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

10
“If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.

Unfortunately, being captive is what some people want (just as Israel wanted to return to Egypt after being freed, wanting the 'food' that Egypt had to offer even though it came with 'chains'). Religion is Egypt. The wilderness is the place between religion/Egypt (from which people have been freed) and the promised land (when Christ returns).

But there is nothing physical forcing anyone to be captive (to religion); except perhaps fear. And fear is the 'horn' - aka strength - that religion uses to keep people in line and obedient to them. For example, by telling people that leaving them (the religion) means leaving God and His Son. The RCC and the WTS (jw religion) does this; I am sure others do it as well. And depending on the particular teachings of a religion, leaving them means leaving God and that means going to hell, or being destroyed at Armageddon. Some religions also punish people here and now for leaving the religion (shunning, loss of friends and family - and all that entails).



**

The second beast in that passage (the one that comes out of the earth) is a more specific religion (one that has to do with Christ). Because that beast looks like a lamb (Christ is the lamb, and the Truth; so this second beast has the "appearance" of a lamb... but it is a sham. Because the beast that looks like a lamb also speaks like a dragon - aka - it speaks LIES. The Adversary's native language is LIES. Like a wolf in sheep's clothing, looks like a sheep, but acts like a wolf - aka - devouring the sheep.)

Jews? Judaism holds that only God is to be worshiped and that God does not take any physical form. Worship of any human being is considered blasphemous idolatry, and any wonders the antichrist performed would be interpreted as the workings of a false teacher sent by God to test the Jewish people.

Muslims? Islam also teaches that God takes no physical form, so they too would instantly peg the antichrist as a phony.

Feminist Pagans would reject any god-claim which didn't acknowledge the Goddess.

Atheists would suspect any miracle of being either a trick or a coincidence. An "image of the beast" brought to life could be taken for an artificial intelligence project.

The god-claim of the antichrist being fundamentally incompatible with so many beliefs, who would be left for the antichrist to fool?

The beast that comes up out of the sea is not a person, and many have been deceived, are still being deceived, and do not know it (will even adamantly deny it, no matter how much evidence is presented that their religion does/teaches in contradiction to Christ and/or to a God of love.)


Christ is the truth - the One to whom God said to listen, the One who has promised to lead His people into ALL truth. Hold all things up against HIM (the Truth and the Light).

Not men, not religion.

Just Christ.




May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to get a sense of these things from the One who is the Truth (Christ Jaheshua). May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE!"

(which water is holy spirit, poured out by Christ to whomever He chooses, given to Him by His Father without end)


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Tcg in post #77

Why do some theists think they can speak for atheists?

Why do some atheists get all defensive even when theists are trying to give them credit for something?

I'm not defensive at all. I've pointed out the fallacy of you speaking on behalf of atheists and misrepresenting us.

Misrepresenting you?

Yep. That's exactly what you have done.

What verifiable evidence can you produce that I've misrepresented you?

I've already provided it. It's a direct quote from you:

"Atheists would suspect any miracle of being either a trick or a coincidence."

This does not represent my position at all. As I explained previously, verifiable evidence needs to be presented. If any attempt is done to do so I will examine it fairly. What have you?

Here's a direct quote from you, in another thread:

"There are as many one true gods as there are true believers in those gods, at least according to those true believers. In reality gods can't be shown to exist anywhere outside of the imagination of human beings. Given that, there are perhaps thousands of them. Out of those, none can be shown to actually exist. So, the answer to your question is zero." (emphasis mine)

That doesn't look to me like it was authored by someone whose mind is particularly open to examining evidence.

[Tcg]

That doesn't look to me like it was authored by someone whose mind is particularly open to examining evidence.

I see. You are now claiming to be a mind reader. When and how did you attain this ability?


Tcg

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to tam in post #84

The beast that comes up out of the sea is religion.

The text says that 666 is the number of a man.

This is something my Lord has confirmed to me, so that it is not my knowledge or wisdom, but rather, His.

Doesn't what's "confirmed" to you have to match up with what's "confirmed" in the Bible?

[Athetotheist]

That doesn't look to me like it was authored by someone whose mind is particularly open to examining evidence.

I see. You are now claiming to be a mind reader. When and how did you attain this ability?

I didn't read it in your mind. I read it in one of your posts.

[Tcg]

That doesn't look to me like it was authored by someone whose mind is particularly open to examining evidence.

I see. You are now claiming to be a mind reader. When and how did you attain this ability?

I didn't read it in your mind. I read it in one of your posts.

But you claimed to know what was in my mind. Funny huh?


Tcg

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #84

The beast that comes up out of the sea is religion.

The text says that 666 is the number of a man.

A - the number is in reference to the second beast (the beast that comes from the earth). Regardless, neither the first nor the second beast is a man.

B - the text can be translated as 'the number of a man' or 'man's number' (as in mankind). I did a quick google search (but it is hard to sort through all the various interpretations of who/what the beast can be to find something that deals with the actual translation, so I don't necessarily agree with all the things being said in the article I am posting from, but just wanted to give you an idea of the grammar/interpretation):

This discussion so far points to understanding the number of the beast collectively, rather than only as a reference to an individual Antichrist figure. This is suggested further by the phrase “for the number is that of a man,” which could be translated individually as, “for it is a number of a specific person” or better generically as, “for it is a number of humanity.” The word man (Greek anthropos) is often generic when it occurs without an article (as here), and as seen in 21:17, where the “measurement of a man” (the literal Greek phrase) means a “human measurement.” Likewise, the omission of the definite article (“a man,” as opposed to “the man”) in 13:18 suggests the general idea of humanity, not some special individual who can be discerned only through an esoteric manner of calculation.

https://faculty.wts.edu/posts/why-is-th ... beast-666/


In any case, mankind makes sense when referring to a religion, since it is men who form and join religions, even though religion gets its authority and power from the Adversary, and is used by the Adversary to persecute those who are loyal to Christ and to God (as opposed to those who are loyal instead to that particular religion - which no one can "buy or sell from", without the number of its name).

This is something my Lord has confirmed to me, so that it is not my knowledge or wisdom, but rather, His.

Doesn't what's "confirmed" to you have to match up with what's "confirmed" in the Bible?

Wouldn't that make the bible my authority, my master, 'my god' so to speak? Wouldn't that mean I give a book (a non-living thing) more obedience and faith than the actual and living Christ, the true Word of God, the very person to whom God said to listen (as even that book records)?


(though what I shared only contradicts what some interpret from what is written)



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy