How I see the Historical Jesus

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oldbadger
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How I see the Historical Jesus

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Post by oldbadger »

These are my rambling ideas about historical Jesus, shown from individual scenes, situations and events.

They are not connected in any timeline but just separate views for any folks who might be interested.
About one scene per day

Right......ummmm.....

Caesar's Coin.

A smart priest hoping to catch Jesus in a 'can't win must lose' question asked him about taxation, and Jesus asked to see a coin which the priest brought to Jesus. And so I guess that Jesus held this coin up to the assembled folks.

Only one person could have reported this incident in writing imo, because authors of Matthew and Luke copied the Markan account and the author of G-John probably wasn't borne at that time, so..... one written or oral account. I've often wondered where this witness was in that crowd, how far from Jesus and that coin.... and I don't think that it was a denarius.

The denarius was almost exactly the same diameter as the Temple coin and although the denarius was about half the weight and thickness...both coins were silver and who could tell which from any but the closest distance? I expect that when Jesus asked the priest 'Whose features and inscription?' that he was in fact referring to a Temple coin. Let me explain:-

The Romans selected the design of the Temple 'shekel' (a half shekel weight in silver). The obverse showed the image of a Greek/Roman God named Melgarth Heracles, but known to the Jews as Baal, and the reverse face showed the graven image of a raptor and the abbreviated name of Caesar in Greek, either KP or KAP as an abbreviation for 'Καίσαρας'. The image of any other God, graven images and certainly Caesar's name to be touched and held by every male Jew at the Great Temple had to be extremely provocative. For instance, I wonder how a Christian congregation would feel if it had a collection coin with obverse image of a copulating couple and reverse of a sunbathing nude, etc?

I asked a strong atheist how he would feel if the currency coins in his country were struck with a cross on obverse and a praying Jesus on reverse with the initials JC above. He replied with what seemed like spitting fury......... so it's easy for anybody to guess how the Jewish people thought about the images on their Temple's coin....OK?

So Jesus held it up and asked the smarty pants priest ,'Whose image and inscription?' and the priest just didn't have the guts to answer honestly, and Jesus gave him and his colleagues present their lives by not challenging that answer....... But I'll bet that shut them all up for a while.

I'd post up images of both denarius and shekel from that time but I don't think that I can upload pics straight from my computer, unless anybody knows different.

If only the gospel writers had got that scene (imo) correct....... Wow! But not much guidance there, maybe?

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Re: How I see the Historical Jesus

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Post by Difflugia »

oldbadger wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:57 amI'd post up images of both denarius and shekel from that time but I don't think that I can upload pics straight from my computer, unless anybody knows different.
Debating Christianity doesn't host images directly, but there are free image hosting services. I've been using imgbb.com for a few years. So far, it's been free and there are no ads or anything.

Image
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: How I see the Historical Jesus

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Post by Miles »

oldbadger wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:57 am
I'd post up images of both denarius and shekel from that time but I don't think that I can upload pics straight from my computer, unless anybody knows different.
Here's another free hosting site: https://imgbb.com/ for pics sitting on your computer. It's somewhat of a bother, which is why I find it far easier to post pics directly from a website by clicking on an image and selecting the "Copy Image Link" function.


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................... Denarius.....................................................................................Shekel

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Re: How I see the Historical Jesus

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Post by oldbadger »

Miles wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:26 pm
oldbadger wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:57 am
I'd post up images of both denarius and shekel from that time but I don't think that I can upload pics straight from my computer, unless anybody knows different.
Here's another free hosting site: https://imgbb.com/ for pics sitting on your computer. It's somewhat of a bother, which is why I find it far easier to post pics directly from a website by clicking on an image and selecting the "Copy Image Link" function.


Image Image
................... Denarius.....................................................................................Shekel

.
Thank you Miles. :)

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Re: How I see the Historical Jesus

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Walking on water.......... !

Who on this forum has some knowledge of Eastern and Western Aramaic? If so then you can help me.

I think that many (not all!) miracle claims were spun from incidents that actually happened.

Here are the reports:-

MATTHEW
14:25} And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea. ............................................................... And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. {14:29} And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. {14:30} But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

MARK {6:48} ......................... he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.

LUKE............... None.

JOHN {6:18} ................. they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

I've always thought that G-Mark was the more genuine account, with fiddles and additions sieved out, and we have Matthew building strongly upon it, Luke not paying attention to it, and John simply making mention. So what is there?

Firstly, does anybody think that Cephas (Peter) could swim? Where I grew up many of the bargemen, smacksmen and oystermen of the Estuary (mostly) could not swim. Long ago I asked an old smacksman why he (and they) couldn't swim and he replied that they had never needed to, and that in any case their leather high-boots were so heavy that they would never be able to get them off. So I wonder if the boatmen of Gennesaret could swim? G-Mark shows that he could not. And then on to the more difficult question of how Christianity got Jesus walking on water.

So here's a theory for your consideration. ...... Was Jesus a strong and fast swimmer? I was never a powerful swimmer but I think I could swim across Genessaret, about 5-6 miles at about I mile per hour = 6 hours of hard labour (for me now) but I know young fit men and women who could swim that distance in about 3 hours. The first overhand swimmers that are known about are the Egyptians and I have a picture of an ancient stone carving showing a swimming race with Egyptians racing freestyle with archers on the bank drawing hunting bows...... possibly to keep the crocs and hippos away? Maybe Jesus was a strong swimmer and Christianity popped him up on the surface and walking along?

This is where I seriously need help, if you can give it. So far I've found an Aramaic(Hebrew?) word for swimming which also means 'to walk'....Let's see if I can paste it up for you to see....

שחה
Translation results for: שחה
שָׂחָה פ' קל
to swim
שָׁחָה פ' קל
(flowery) to bend over, to stoop ; to bow down, to crouch, to squat
שָׂח פ' קל
(flowery) to walk (for pleasure), to wander

Is that how Christianity raised a strong swimmer (amongst non-swimming friends) in to a water-walker?

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Re: How I see the Historical Jesus

Post #6

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The miraculous fish catches.

No wonder those Genessaret boatmen looked up to Jesus. His ideas were quite 'miraculous'. I wonder if he suggested that his friends send their young ones around the community with baskets for any discarded food fragments, crumbs, etc? These could be spread over the water in a chosen place before netting to secure bumper catches, maybe?

That would make so much sense imo.

MARK:{6:42} And they did all eat, and were filled. {6:43} And they took up twelve baskets full of the fragments, and of the fishes.

MARK: {8:8} So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken [meat] that was left seven baskets.

MARK: {8:19} When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. {8:20} And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. {8:21} And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

MATTHEW:{14:20} And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.

MATTHEW: {15:37} And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken [meat] that was left seven baskets full.

LUKE: {9:17} And they did eat, and were all filled: and there was taken up of fragments that remained to them twelve baskets.

JOHN: {6:13} Therefore they gathered [them] together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Those miracle catches, adapted for the evangelistical story.... ?

LUKE {5:3} And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon’s, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship. {5:4} Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught. {5:5} And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net. {5:6} And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake. {5:7} And they beckoned unto [their] partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink.

JOHN: {21:4} But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. {21:5} Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No. {21:6} And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship,
and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes. {21:7}

JOHN: {21:10} Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught. {21:11} Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, and hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.


:)

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Re: How I see the Historical Jesus

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Jesus and Family.

During a visit to his home community he stirred up so much trouble that he was probably a great embarrassement and possibly a source of insecurity to his Mother and half-siblings. I've always suspected that his family wanted him to just stop the demonstrating, speech-making and attempts at rebellion.

The occasion when his Mother and brothers came to speak with him at Magdala, maybe an attempt to appeal to or even berate him for his behaviour, whilst I cannot ignore it I do wonder about the time and place. It's a long 15 mile walk (a whole day's trek...there and back) from Nazareth area to Magdala just to have words with a wayward half-brother so I do wonder if this might have happened during a visit to Nazareth. In any event:-
Jesus valued close friends over family and you may know of examples like this yourself.

Mark {3:31} There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. {3:32} And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. {3:33} And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? {3:34} And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

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Re: How I see the Historical Jesus

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Jesus and his food and drink.

Jesus absolutely loved his food and drink, and sometimes to excess. I have no problems with that at all, in fact these reports sing of some truth within the gospels, but that's my opinion.
Christianity insists that these accounts are from nasty enemies telling nasty lies, so why would the gospel writers even mention that Jesus liked to drink with boatmen and publicans, or that he went to gatherings where masses of wine was consumed?
These stories got all the way to Perea and John the Baptist sent friends to find out more about Jesus as a direct result, which dissolves any gospel claims of the Baptist and Jesus being relatives.

Let's see what those gospels tell.......

Mark: {2:15} And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. {2:16} And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners?

Matthew: {11:19} The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.

Luke: {7:19} And John calling [unto him] two of his disciples sent [them] to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? {7:20} When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for
another?

Luke: . {7:34} The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

G-John: ]{2:6} And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. {2:7} Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. {2:8} And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare [it. ]{2:9} When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;)

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Re: How I see the Historical Jesus

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Jesus and Cornwall?

1500 years before Jesus lived there was a seafaring race of people , the Phoenicians, who lived in what is now the Levant and the Island of Crete. The Ports of Tyre and Sidon were among their bases. They were seafaring traders and they went to Cornwall in S.W. England for tin because the new technology of that age was mostly about bronze and the main source of tin was from the mines of Cornwall..

So it's not a strange idea that ships were still trading with Cornwall in the time of Jesus! On occasions Jesus actually went up to Tyre and Sidon which is only a quarter of the distance from Capernaum and an easy journey by comparison with Jerusalem.

The Legend is that Joseph of Arimathea, a Jewish merchant and member of the Priesthood, traded with Cornwall, and that he brought Jesus there. The Gospels tell us that his friends saw him after that last week in Galilee and so he might have been alive on his way to the ports of Sidon or Tyre and in to exile. Joseph was a merchant, so maybe he traded abroad? The Cornish people have a tradition that he did.

I've often wondered about this, but one evening I found myself glued to my TV screen as the 'Time-Team', an archeological group of many specialists who carry out short intense 3 day investigations for this television program ... they excavated Looe Island, which lies not far from Hermits Harbour, Looe, Cornwall.

They discovered an ancient building, pre-dating Christianity, and excavated a small hoard of Roman coins (one silver) and 2 mediterranean anchors exactly like those that have been found in the bed of the Sea-of-Galilee, stones with a single hole bored through for a mooring line.
The Cornish Traditions also claim that Jesus founded the first church at Glastonbury in the West Country, now famous for its great field where annual pop festivals are held.

Many traditions memorise how and where Jesus went after that last week, and since Islam also insists that he did not die on a cross ........ who knows?

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Re: How I see the Historical Jesus

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Jesus the handworker and healer............. magi?

This scrambled 'junble' of ideas doesn't need to be smoothed out, imo. See what you think...... :)

Some thoughts about Jesus, wisdom, magic and sorcery.
Jesus is often referred to as a carpenter, or Tecton. The Eastern Aramaic word is Nagar or Nagarra.

Did you know that the word is associated with "crafting" in the Sorcerer sense?

A related word is Nachash = Serpent, - Hiss an incantation, - a Sorcerer.

Kharash and tekton are also related to nagar.

Serpent is Naga in India, Nagash in Babylonian, and Nachash in the Bible. All of them are associated with Sorcery.

Both the Indian Naga Serpents and the Hebrew Nachash Serpents are associated with magic. In fact one word for magic in the Bible is nachash – To (snake) hiss/whisper an incantation.

And so, maybe Jesus was thought of as a Sorcerer.

... crafting............ sorcerer ...... Kharash and tekton ... nagar ... nacash ... nagash ... magic.

Could I just push this a little further.... ?
QUESTION: Magi? Could a person who, on the balance of possibilities, did accomplish extraordinary healing and other actions be called a magi? Would this not fit in with the above descriptions?
Magi was used for magician - so yes. And we do know that extraordinary healers with their herbs and potions were often associated with magic.

QUESTION: Balancing and weighing all, do you believe that this person, this name, was actually built up from a real character? I do.

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