Hell - A misunderstood word

[MissKate13]

The English word hell appears twenty-three times in the King James Version of the New Testament. “Hell” actually represents three different terms in the Greek New Testament.

The first is “ade.” It is translated hell ten times in the KJV. Many new versions use the word Hades instead of hell. There are several ways Hades is used in the NT. The best way to determine its use is by context. In some places Hades is defined as the abode of departed spirits.

Gehenna (geennan), on the other hand, seems to be a place of torment, one to be avoided. Gehenna originates from two Hebrew words meaning “Valley of Hinnom.” The Valley of Hinnom, in the mind of the Jews, was detestable, disgusting, sickening, entirely unpleasant, and a place to be avoided. That was exactly what Jesus wanted to get across each time he used the term geennan.

Tartarus occurs only one in the New Testament (2 Peter 2:4). Here, it is used of the abode of evil angels prior to their banishment to Gehenna, their ultimate destiny (Mt. 25:41). It denotes that area of Hades in which both rebel men and angels are punished prior to the day of judgment. 2 Peter 2:9 supports this: “the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment unto the day of judgment”

“Hell” is not the grave. In the New Testament there are three words that refer to the grave. They are taphos, mnema, and mnemeion. Taphos is used seven times and is translated sepulcher six times and tomb once.
Mnema is translated as tomb twice, grave once, and sepulcher four times.
Mnemeion is used five times as tomb, twenty-nine times as sepulcher, and eight times as grave.

Mt 5:22 geennan
Mt 5:29 geennan
Mt 5:30 geennan
Mt 10:28 geenne
Mt 11:23 adou
Mt 16:18 adou
Mt 18:9 geennan
Mt 23:15 geennes
My 23:33 geennes
Mark 9:43 geennan
Mark 9:47 geennan
Mark 9:47 geennan
Luke 10:15 adou
Luke 12:5 geennan
Luke 16:23 ade
Acts 2:27 aden
Acts 2:31 aden
James 3:6 geennes
2 Peter 2:4 tartarōsas
Rev 1:18 adou
Rev 6:8 ades
Rev 20:13 ades
Rev 20:14 ades

Your thoughts?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #39]


Not sure what you are witnessing here Timothy, but it does not appear to be YHVH.

William: We can fathom at least as much as the information provides us with.

Timothy: All speculation and guessing. Which doesn't equal fact.

Nor does it equal fiction.

Agreed?

Anything other than fact and truth equals nothing.

You have forgotten the YHVH element Gen 2:7 which allows the dust to animate and to think and to function as a living thing rather than simply be dust which has been formed into a body set - Adam's body set was no more Adam before The breath of YHVH gave life to the Cadaver, and "Adam" became Adam, experiencing being within the form YHVH created for that purpose?
Adam was "made" from more than just dust.

The Bible makes no indication of this.

Gen 2:7 makes mention of this, and is from the Bible.

Are you willing to argue that The breath of YHVH also turns to dust?

Would it not be more appropriate to think that The breath of YHVH returns to YHVH and that is where the information of a personalities data of experience is stored, and how YHVH has access to it and can retrieve it?

Agreed?

The breath that makes us alive doesn't belong to us.

I am arguing that 'us' belong to 'it'. The personalities ['us'] which are grown and can only be grown by The breath of YHVH and are saved in The Elohim Databanks [the 'Us' re Gen 3:22] and thus - clearly - belong to YHVH.

We belong to the One who gave it. "The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the true God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole obligation of man." Ecc 12:13

No more than electricity belongs to or even part of a radio to make it work. What makes us dust bunnies live is still a mystery that even scientist are struggling to understand as to why we can't bring someone back to life once a person is....wait for it....brain dead.

You conflate the brain as being sentient, and thus when it is dead, so too is the information of the data of experience that the personality formed through.

Yes. It returns to dust, as the Bible says.

What of such dust can YHVH use if it is scattered throughout the earth, having to be reconstructed without any memory?

God is the Creator of all things. There are no restrictions on how he reconstructs a person. Scattered not scattered, makes new dust or whatever it doesn't matter.

However, who we are as a person is not kept in this 'breath'.

Far better to understand that the memory YHVH has, is not stored in the earth, but in the mind of YHVH - complete and immediately ready to be installed into whatever form YHVH chooses for it.

Agreed?

To me, how He accomplishes the resurrection to come is not as important as that He can and will do it.

While the breath YHVH gave is necessary for us to live there is no indication that it is part of who we are as a person.

Not among those who believe otherwise. The 'indication' comes through aligning the information with the actuality and one who realizes the connect effectively activates it through that act of realization.

Meet and greet.

"YHVH - Timothy - Timothy - YHVH"

One cannot bear witness of YHVH without that. One is bearing witness of YHVH through the direct connection that The breath of YHVH provides to the individual personality grown from that Soul and belonging to YHVH.

The personality aware of this, is useful to YHVH in that regard, as such do not think of themselves as merely the product of a brain, but rather - a grown product of The Soul of Gardener YHVH - re The breath of YHVH ... rather than merely seeing The breath of YHVH as an "Electric Power Station" with no heart, mind or soul about it...

Agreed?

One can see what they want to see. I they want to think of themselves as more than what they actually are, that is their business.

I want to see what Jehovah sees. Here is what He sees.

"For he well knows how we are formed, Remembering that we are dust." Ps 103:14

The humble person has no problem with this. They don't use words like 'merely' as if being living dust is not good enough for them. Psalm 139:14 says even though we are dust that we are 'wonderfully made'.

I love being wonderfully made dust. Dust that is worth something to Jehovah so much that He gave his Son so that me, this dust particle can keep living in this world that He made. Its not what we think we are worth, it is what Jehovah thinks we are worth. It would appear in the Bible that one's worth is not based on what they are made of, this is a human made problem people have as to their worth to themselves.

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #41]

To me, how He accomplishes the resurrection to come is not as important as that He can and will do it.

I disagree as your response tells the reader that the subject matter is important to you, or you wouldn't be preaching your beliefs on the matter to others.

The estimate of the importance of the one but no so much of the other, is simply a symptom of your beliefs...

Anything other than fact and truth equals nothing.

...rather than of any truth you proclaim your beliefs derive from.

You conflate the brain as being sentient, and thus when it is dead, so too is the information of the data of experience that the personality formed through.

Yes. It returns to dust, as the Bible says.

While I can agree that an author of a passage in the Bible, say's something, I have to examine whether that author even knew about The Breath of YHVH and its role, or was simply assuming - as the materialist do - that the brain is the storage device of the data of experience of the individual human personality and that the human being is "only the body". That which is flesh is not that which is spirit.

We belong to the One who gave it.

What I am saying is that the evidence - both Biblical and non-biblical - point to the idea that the data of experience of the individual human personality is retained in The Breath of YHVH, which leaves the body once the body dies.

YHVH is the Creator of all things. There are no restrictions on how YHVH reconstructs a person. Scattered not scattered, makes new dust or whatever it doesn't matter.

It appears to matter to you re your beliefs.

It might indeed matter that we do understand correctly what the process is which YHVH uses as a means of storing information in the data banks of The Elohim.

"For he well knows how we are formed, Remembering that we are dust." Ps 103:14

This can be countered by other biblical verses and in that, may be an incorrect misdirection by the author quoted.
This has obviously caused there to arise two camps of opposing viewpoints, and so it is not really a matter of simply "seeing what we want to see" or even believing that what we want to see is the same thing as how YHVH does things.

It would appear in the Bible that one's worth is not based on what they are made of...

Ones worth is measured by whether YHVH saves the individual human personality, or deletes it.

Therefore - logically it is the human personality which is worth something to YHVH, not the instrument of dust which YHVH grows said personalities within.

YHVH is interested in the mind, more than the matter, which is logical since YHVH is not matter and matter is not real in comparison to mind.

Anyone who thinks they are only the matter, only 'dust' is - by definition - a materialist. I think that theist materialists are conveying a misunderstanding as a truth.

_____________________

Since we do not agree on this, there is likely nothing else that can be achieved through further correspondence.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #41]

To me, how He accomplishes the resurrection to come is not as important as that He can and will do it.

I disagree as your response tells the reader that the subject matter is important to you, or you wouldn't be preaching your beliefs on the matter to others.

I'm not here to convince one to my beliefs to a reader. I'm here to show what I have found in the Bible. The subject matter is important but the details are not. Jehovah created the whole universe we see. I don't even know how He did that. Why should I expect to understand how He resurrects someone? Yet, if He says he will bring someone back to life, I have no reason to expect One that can create a whole universe, to explain how He will bring someone back to life.

Your definition of preaching is different from mine. You're the one asking questions and I'm responding with what I have discovered in the Bible. 1 Peter 3:15

[MissKate13]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #19]

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to throw you into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear Him.

Who is this entity which has the authority to kill and to throw that which is killed, away?

I answered that question in post #19. God.

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #43]

I'm not here to convince one to my beliefs to a reader. I'm here to show what I have found in the Bible.

I am not arguing otherwise.
There are folk contributing to this thread who claim that they too are showing readers what they also have found in the Bible - narration of authors who believed differently about what happens to the individual personality once the body dies, than what you do.

The subject matter is important but the details are not.

I would expect anyone claiming to witness for YHVH to know how YHVH does things.

YHVH created the whole universe we see. I don't even know how YHVH did that.

Then how can you say you are a witnessing representative of YHVH?

Why should I expect to understand how YHVH resurrects someone?

When you simply believe in some biblical narration and reject contrary biblical narration, there can be no expectation from the reader that you understand the workings involved.

Yet, if YHVH says he will bring someone back to life, I have no reason to expect One that can create a whole universe, to explain how YHVH will bring someone back to life.

No one has to have all the details of how this is done. I am being specific to how the data of experience which makes up an individual personality, is stored in the Elohim databanks.
You are of the opinion that the personality is simply a body which has to be 'brought back' from being 'dead dust' to being 'alive dust'.

Your definition of preaching is different from mine.

Don't get too hung up on the word. JW's are specific to door-knocking and wanting to teach their particular version of biblical interpretations directly to the house-holder on the householders doorstep.
The teaching that we are disagreeing about is that human personalities are products of the brain and everyone will die and turn to dust. That is purely a materialistic world view which was not shared by all the Biblical authors/commentators.

Your defense in stating "Why should I expect to understand how YHVH" does things, is similar to how the man of the Pharisees - Nicodemus - responded to Jesus saying "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of YHVH."
[John 3]
Nicodemus also couldn't understand such things because of his materialistic world-view, when Jesus told him that a personality had to be 'born again' and Nicodemus associated that with a purely materialistic happening;

Nicodemus: How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”

If one cannot understand the mind of YHVH, how can one claim to understand the Kingdom of YHVH?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh Timothy. You are arguing that this is how you see yourself and all other human personalities, but not all other human personalities see themselves as the flesh. Some understand clearly that they are Spirit - they are "born of Spirit" and so no longer identify as dust, such as the author of Psalms, and other biblical authors identified themselves and everyone else.

You're the one asking questions and I'm responding with what I have discovered in the Bible.

As I wrote - There are folk contributing to this thread who claim that they too are showing readers what they also have found in the Bible.
Obviously then, the Bible has different versions as to "what happens to a personality when they die", and given the amount of extra-biblical information available to studious investigators - information which supports the versions which have it that death is not the end of a personalities conscious awareness and ongoing experience of alternate realities occur, it means that The Breath of YHVH holds significance not only for making dead forms alive, but for preserving individual personalities when those forms cease to function as containers for life.

1 Peter 3:15

Obviously the hope that is within you and what you teach others, is that even that you will turn to dust, YHVH will resurrect you "one day"
Obviously the hope that is within others and what they teach others, is that even though the body will die, the personality continues to live as 'spirit' and goes on to experience alternate realities.

Either way, obviously all folk can claim some kind of hope and explain that hope to others.

[William]

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #19]

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to throw you into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear Him.

Who is this entity which has the authority to kill and to throw that which is killed, away?

I answered that question in post #19. YHVH.

Yes - and it appears that no one has posted disagreement about that. The disagreement is in whether there is a literal hell that individual personalities can experience as a real thing.

You appear to take the side which believes hell is a literal place, because the authors re biblical Jesus have it that Jesus was serious and not at all being figurative - figurative - as Timothy is arguing.

You appear to think that Jesus was also being literal about folk cutting off their limbs and plucking out their eyes, if it meant they could avoid such places of eternal torment.

Agreed?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #43]

Why should I expect to understand how YHVH resurrects someone?

When you simply believe in some biblical narration and reject contrary biblical narration, there can be no expectation from the reader that you understand the workings involved.

I never have 'simply believed' the Bible. It actually took me years to believe it. But this thread is not about me or my beliefs.

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #47]

I never have 'simply believed' the Bible.

And I never said that you did.

What I wrote was "When you simply believe in some biblical narration"

It actually took me years to believe it.

To believe some of it. For some reason you gravitate to those biblical writers who think in purely materialistic terms, and believe your self and everyone else, to being just 'flesh'.

But this thread is not about me or my beliefs.

Your beliefs have it that Jesus was not being literal about hell being a place of eternal torment.

Your beliefs also have it that personalities somehow die, rather than experience anything after the body used to grow the personality, dies.

Beliefs naturally have their part to play in debate, and the thread is in a debate setting.

When anyone - you included - use their beliefs to debate with, those beliefs are able to be questioned and if all you can do in answer to my questions and observations re your beliefs, is to say "it is not about me or my beliefs", then your beliefs are of no particular value to this debate subject, and therefore should be kept out of such settings.

Do you agree?

If not, please answer the questions and observations put to you, about your beliefs.

Otherwise, "go well".

[JehovahsWitness]

Obviously the hope that is within you and what you teach others, is that even that you will turn to dust, YHVH will resurrect you "one day"
Obviously the hope that is within others and what they teach others, is that even though the body will die, the personality continues to live as 'spirit' and goes on to experience alternate realities.

Not all hopes are equal ; someone might hope to be reincarnated a zebra but that doesnt mean they will be. One cannot live on as a spirit after death and also cease to exist. And the bible teaches that when a person dies they no longer exist in any form. Biblically, their personality no longer exists because they no longer exist.

PSALMS 146: 4 - King James Bible

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

LIFE, DEATH and ...THE HUMAN SOUL

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #49]

I have already critiqued that belief, JW...see my previous posts.