Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

For the love of the pursuit of knowledge

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


Assuming choice is possible, how does a person go about freely choosing to believe in god?

Is such a thing even possible? Doesn't there have to be an overwhelmingly convincing element that comes into play before such a belief can take place? And why would we settle on that particular element rather than some other element, which might not be convincing at all? Wouldn't picking that convincing element because that's what it is, be stacking the deck? And how would we become aware of such an element?



.

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8487
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2141 times
Been thanked: 2293 times

Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #51

Post by Tcg »

Rose2020 wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:16 am At the moment of realisation that God is real, comes the faith.
No. Faith is required first. That is the requirement for believing God is real.
The fact remains we have that choice. Just as we choose right or wrong, this path or that path.
This is wrong also. No one can choose to believe that which they aren't convinced is true.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

User avatar
AquinasForGod
Sage
Posts: 972
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:29 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #52

Post by AquinasForGod »

I do not think we choose to believe anything.

We become more or less convinced of things based on our experiences with the world. Those things we are more convinced of, we believe.

OneWay
Banned
Banned
Posts: 464
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:37 pm
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #53

Post by OneWay »

Miles wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:11 pm Can We Choose To Believe In God?.
NO

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #54

Post by Purple Knight »

AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:23 pm I do not think we choose to believe anything.

We become more or less convinced of things based on our experiences with the world. Those things we are more convinced of, we believe.
If you take a pair of twins and raise one in a world where crows are white, and another in a world where crows are black, you're going to get one twin that is sure crows are white. Even if he's wrong, you're expecting insanity if you're expecting him to suddenly choose to believe crows are black.

User avatar
AquinasForGod
Sage
Posts: 972
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:29 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #55

Post by AquinasForGod »

Purple Knight wrote: Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:27 pm
AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:23 pm I do not think we choose to believe anything.

We become more or less convinced of things based on our experiences with the world. Those things we are more convinced of, we believe.
If you take a pair of twins and raise one in a world where crows are white, and another in a world where crows are black, you're going to get one twin that is sure crows are white. Even if he's wrong, you're expecting insanity if you're expecting him to suddenly choose to believe crows are black.
I agree, but I am not sure of your point here.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #56

Post by Purple Knight »

AquinasForGod wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:19 amI agree, but I am not sure of your point here.
That anyone who thinks you're wrong is expecting people to be literally insane.

And I'm thinking about people who do simply choose a belief, and they do it because people around them have chosen that belief. Someone who, for example, believes all crows are white not because he ever saw a white crow, but because everybody around him thinks crows are white, or because believing crows are white confers some sort of social advantage. I begin to think of it as mass hysteria.

And I'm not really targeting religion here, at least, only about 1% as much as I'm targeting other sorts of fad beliefs.

User avatar
AquinasForGod
Sage
Posts: 972
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:29 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #57

Post by AquinasForGod »

Purple Knight wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:58 pm
AquinasForGod wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:19 amI agree, but I am not sure of your point here.
That anyone who thinks you're wrong is expecting people to be literally insane.

And I'm thinking about people who do simply choose a belief, and they do it because people around them have chosen that belief. Someone who, for example, believes all crows are white not because he ever saw a white crow, but because everybody around him thinks crows are white, or because believing crows are white confers some sort of social advantage. I begin to think of it as mass hysteria.

And I'm not really targeting religion here, at least, only about 1% as much as I'm targeting other sorts of fad beliefs.
I see what you are saying, but is the insane person that hallucinates choosing to believe crows are white or is he convinced that he is hallucinating them as black because everyone else tells him they see crows as white?

I would argue he is being convinced that he must be hallucinating. If he were not convinced, then he wouldn't really believe he was wrong. He would believe he is not hallucinating and for whatever reasons crows are black to him and white to others, but to get along in society he just says crows are white.

Unless you are convinced of the thing being true, then you don't believe it.

Definition of believe = accept (something) as true; feel sure of the truth of.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #58

Post by Purple Knight »

AquinasForGod wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:38 amI would argue he is being convinced that he must be hallucinating.
That's the framework he has to accept to avoid being cognitively dissonant, yes. If he at first realised he would not get along unless he believed this thing, then told himself over and over that it was true until at last he actually believed he really was hallucinating, he may have chosen a belief. He became insane trying to cure himself of insanity. He brainwashed himself. He could also choose a belief by paying someone to brainwash him. It does work. But ignoring reality and convincing yourself of things is insanity.

This is why you're right that belief is passive. Non-hysterical belief anyway. The most active thing anyone ought to want from you is try to suppress your own biases, which really amounts to not doing something - not intentionally shoehorning what you see into a certain framework you happen to like and justifying it after. We have the brain machinery that does this for us, drawing conclusions based on observation, and for the most part it's good machinery that works well.

If someone chooses to believe something, they're like the fellow seeing black crows and having convinced himself they're all white. They're hysterical. I think you're right and this extreme outlier case where you could be wrong actually proves it, because it's such a hard sell to expect people to be insane or brainwashed. It would be part of the same schema of self-harm that falls well outside the normal range of human behaviour.

Maybe though, you can't go that far unless you really are insane by nature. Maybe a sane person never really makes the leap from saying it's true to get along, to actually believing it. Frankly my inability to jump that chasm has gotten me into trouble.

User avatar
AquinasForGod
Sage
Posts: 972
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2022 7:29 am
Location: USA
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 71 times

Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #59

Post by AquinasForGod »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 4:43 pm
AquinasForGod wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 8:38 amI would argue he is being convinced that he must be hallucinating.
That's the framework he has to accept to avoid being cognitively dissonant, yes. If he at first realised he would not get along unless he believed this thing, then told himself over and over that it was true until at last he actually believed he really was hallucinating, he may have chosen a belief. He became insane trying to cure himself of insanity. He brainwashed himself. He could also choose a belief by paying someone to brainwash him. It does work. But ignoring reality and convincing yourself of things is insanity.

This is why you're right that belief is passive. Non-hysterical belief anyway. The most active thing anyone ought to want from you is try to suppress your own biases, which really amounts to not doing something - not intentionally shoehorning what you see into a certain framework you happen to like and justifying it after. We have the brain machinery that does this for us, drawing conclusions based on observation, and for the most part it's good machinery that works well.

If someone chooses to believe something, they're like the fellow seeing black crows and having convinced himself they're all white. They're hysterical. I think you're right and this extreme outlier case where you could be wrong actually proves it, because it's such a hard sell to expect people to be insane or brainwashed. It would be part of the same schema of self-harm that falls well outside the normal range of human behaviour.

Maybe though, you can't go that far unless you really are insane by nature. Maybe a sane person never really makes the leap from saying it's true to get along, to actually believing it. Frankly my inability to jump that chasm has gotten me into trouble.
I certainly couldn't do it. There are things I highly desire to be true, but I cannot convince myself they are true, so I am stuck not believing.

User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1129 times
Been thanked: 729 times

Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #60

Post by Purple Knight »

AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:24 amI certainly couldn't do it. There are things I highly desire to be true, but I cannot convince myself they are true, so I am stuck not believing.
I think if your life really depended on it, your survival instinct would kick in. There are a lot of things people find they actually can do, if it's life or death, like push and shove for lifeboat space even if that means someone else dies, engage in cannibalism, drink their own pee, or even eat avocados.

Not that I think a fair god would want us to do this of course.

So as far as the topic, I think it's still fair to rule it out. You can't choose to believe in a fair god. Because, if a god expects you to get into a life or death situation so you can force your reason into submission in order to not die... then that's an unfair god.

Post Reply