social norms and you

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

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Shem Yoshi
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social norms and you

Post #1

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what are some beliefs that you see society hold, in morality, that you question? How would you establish what is right and wrong?

I seem to question ethics a lot. Do people really believe they can understand what is right and wrong and judge others on how they see it? And a lot of the time they contradict each other.

A story from the Gospel comes to mind, when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees
"18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’"

When one man didnt eat they called him wrong, but when another eat they called him wrong.

what are some beliefs that you see society hold, in morality, that you question? How would you establish what is right and wrong? is it objective?

One example might even be taken from this website... It is looked well upon to be civil, and one way to do that would be to complement and encourage another person who doesnt hold your beliefs.

But even 2 John 1 says "10 If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. 11 Anyone who encourages such people becomes a partner in their evil work."


kind of funny.... everyone has an opinion
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Re: social norms and you

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Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:23 pm what are some beliefs that you see society hold, in morality, that you question?
Any I feel will be overturned by a morally correct revolutionary. I eat meat but I think it's probably wrong and I think there will be a moral revolution to show us that, perhaps within our lifetimes.
Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:23 pmI seem to question ethics a lot. Do people really believe they can understand what is right and wrong and judge others on how they see it? And a lot of the time they contradict each other.

A story from the Gospel comes to mind, when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees
"18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’"

When one man didn't eat they called him wrong, but when another eat they called him wrong.
I notice that when an ugly girl says something, it is always regarded as false, but when a beautiful one says the same thing, it is now true. I'm not going to go against this and I think most of the time, things like right and true only refer to dominance. When someone says, "he/she is right" this just means, "he is an alpha male/alpha female." 99% of the time.

The only people who mean anything else are people like you looking for answers and frankly they never find them.

The closest I've come is what I call foundational understanding. If you can get, for example, a Nazi, a Democrat, a Republican, and a Libertarian all to agree to the same moral principle then it is probably valid. I think an example of such a question where they would all answer with the same answer (no) is, "Would you kill someone for trying to scam you?" The Nazi would probably have the most extreme response, then the Republican, then the Democrat, and at last the Libertarian would tell you just leave the scammer alone he has done absolutely nothing wrong. But I don't think a single one of them would think the scammer deserves death.
Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:23 pmOne example might even be taken from this website... It is looked well upon to be civil, and one way to do that would be to complement and encourage another person who doesn't hold your beliefs.

But even 2 John 1 says "10 If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. 11 Anyone who encourages such people becomes a partner in their evil work."

kind of funny.... everyone has an opinion
I do believe in this. I believe in giving your opponents their best chance. Maybe more than anyone. I cite AgnosticBoy, Wootah, and JW, and I believe they will all tell you I do this.

I don't think it's moral though. I just want the kind of world where everyone does it, so I do it. Honestly if anything it's selfish.

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Re: social norms and you

Post #3

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Purple Knight wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:01 pm
Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:23 pm what are some beliefs that you see society hold, in morality, that you question?
Any I feel will be overturned by a morally correct revolutionary. I eat meat but I think it's probably wrong and I think there will be a moral revolution to show us that, perhaps within our lifetimes.
Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:23 pmI seem to question ethics a lot. Do people really believe they can understand what is right and wrong and judge others on how they see it? And a lot of the time they contradict each other.

A story from the Gospel comes to mind, when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees
"18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’"

When one man didn't eat they called him wrong, but when another eat they called him wrong.
I notice that when an ugly girl says something, it is always regarded as false, but when a beautiful one says the same thing, it is now true. I'm not going to go against this and I think most of the time, things like right and true only refer to dominance. When someone says, "he/she is right" this just means, "he is an alpha male/alpha female." 99% of the time.

The only people who mean anything else are people like you looking for answers and frankly they never find them.

The closest I've come is what I call foundational understanding. If you can get, for example, a Nazi, a Democrat, a Republican, and a Libertarian all to agree to the same moral principle then it is probably valid. I think an example of such a question where they would all answer with the same answer (no) is, "Would you kill someone for trying to scam you?" The Nazi would probably have the most extreme response, then the Republican, then the Democrat, and at last the Libertarian would tell you just leave the scammer alone he has done absolutely nothing wrong. But I don't think a single one of them would think the scammer deserves death.
I dont know. I have been questioning even the extremes in mortality that everyone agrees with. Like even racism and pedophilia. Everyone talks as if everyone knows, like it is objective, that pedophilia is wrong and racism is wrong. But pedophilia is just defined as 17 and younger, so literally it becomes ok over night to have sexual relations on someones 18th birthday, and do they physically or mentally change from 17 to 18 on that day? No... It is just a subjective law, by which the earth just so happens to spin around the sun at 365.25 days a year and it just so happens that you do that 18 times and sexual relationships open up to everyone. But everyone agrees that it is wrong to have sexual relationship with someone younger then 18, as being objective morality. In fact, criminals hunt pedophiles as if they are righteous... criminals who dont care about laws. Even saying the word pedophile is grounds for offence in our society.

or racism, everyone agrees. Slavery is wrong.. but is it? Some cultures believe slavery isnt wrong. and what is it? Working for no pay? Well we can cure that by just giving you a little money? Just give them minimum wage, problem solved. But that is just a little bit of money. Didnt slaves get room, and boards, and food? And some slaves have wrote about being grateful for their masters, but many people hate their jobs. And in our society it is just agreed to as being wrong...

But im convinced people appeal to the masses. Which is a logical fallacy.

many other wide held beliefs i question, but those are some extreme ones, and watch people get offended, even in the "right and wrong" room, debating about it...

Nazi's probably were taught Jews we bad people... Just like we are taught our morality. How is one wrong and one right?
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:01 pm
Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:23 pmOne example might even be taken from this website... It is looked well upon to be civil, and one way to do that would be to complement and encourage another person who doesn't hold your beliefs.

But even 2 John 1 says "10 If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement. 11 Anyone who encourages such people becomes a partner in their evil work."

kind of funny.... everyone has an opinion
I do believe in this. I believe in giving your opponents their best chance. Maybe more than anyone. I cite AgnosticBoy, Wootah, and JW, and I believe they will all tell you I do this.

I don't think it's moral though. I just want the kind of world where everyone does it, so I do it. Honestly if anything it's selfish.
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”

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Re: social norms and you

Post #4

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Though I suppose one concept I truly believe in.... Liberty... "the perfect law of liberty"... Or Equality... And Due process...
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Re: social norms and you

Post #5

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Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:42 pmI don't know. I have been questioning even the extremes in mortality that everyone agrees with. Like even racism and pedophilia. Everyone talks as if everyone knows, like it is objective, that pedophilia is wrong and racism is wrong. But pedophilia is just defined as 17 and younger, so literally it becomes ok over night to have sexual relations on someones 18th birthday, and do they physically or mentally change from 17 to 18 on that day? No... It is just a subjective law, by which the earth just so happens to spin around the sun at 365.25 days a year and it just so happens that you do that 18 times and sexual relationships open up to everyone. But everyone agrees that it is wrong to have sexual relationship with someone younger then 18, as being objective morality. In fact, criminals hunt pedophiles as if they are righteous... criminals who dont care about laws. Even saying the word pedophile is grounds for offence in our society.
I was in college when I was 13 and I wanted the legal right to have sex with the women there. I figured I'd earned it.

Society will say the mind alone is not what counts. If you have an overdeveloped mind, you still need an 18-year-old body. But if you have a physically adult body and a disabled brain, well then, it's still rape, because you need both. So far so good. But if you bring up a healthy mind, and an otherwise healthy body that did not go through puberty, they will say, that person is allowed to have sex, so I have no bloody clue how they get these answers either.
Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:42 pmor racism, everyone agrees. Slavery is wrong.. but is it? Some cultures believe slavery isnt wrong. and what is it? Working for no pay? Well we can cure that by just giving you a little money? Just give them minimum wage, problem solved. But that is just a little bit of money. Didnt slaves get room, and boards, and food? And some slaves have wrote about being grateful for their masters, but many people hate their jobs. And in our society it is just agreed to as being wrong...
Personally I say slavery is wrong and slavery is when your labour enriches another and not yourself. This makes people living paycheck to paycheck, not getting ahead, even falling into debt... to me they're slaves unless they did this to themselves by being bad with money. Now if the CEO is in hot water too, losing money too, then this is just everyone trying and failing. But if someone is getting rich while using the labour of someone else, and all the worker gets is room and board, that's slavery. To me. (And no you can't pay him less than what room and board costs and call that not slavery. That's dumb.)
Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:42 pmNazi's probably were taught Jews we bad people... Just like we are taught our morality. How is one wrong and one right?
We're taught that racists are bad people. And why? Does racism itself hurt anybody? We're also taught that sticks and stones break your bones but words (and I bloody assume beliefs of others) can never hurt you.

I don't get it either. Maybe appeal to the masses is not a fallacy. I just try to find those foundational understandings where everybody would agree.

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Re: social norms and you

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Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:42 pm
But pedophilia is just defined as 17 and younger,
No, pedophilia is defined as a sexual preference to prepubescent children. An adult having sex with an underage postpubescent teenager is immoral, but not clinically considered pedophilia. BTW the age consent in most places, including most states in the U.S.A. is below 18.

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Re: social norms and you

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help3434 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:06 pm
Shem Yoshi wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:42 pm
But pedophilia is just defined as 17 and younger,
No, pedophilia is defined as a sexual preference to prepubescent children. An adult having sex with an underage postpubescent teenager is immoral, but not clinically considered pedophilia. BTW the age consent in most places, including most states in the U.S.A. is below 18.
how do we know it is immoral?
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Re: social norms and you

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[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #7]

The negative effects of being exposed to sex too early:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5435379 and imbalanced power dynamic between a teenager and an adult are two reasons why it is a very bad idea.

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Re: social norms and you

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help3434 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:20 pm [Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #7]

The negative effects of being exposed to sex too early:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5435379 and imbalanced power dynamic between a teenager and an adult are two reasons why it is a very bad idea.
How do we even conclude that suffering is wrong? Nietzsche said, “what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger.”.. Paul Said "take joy in your tribulations"
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Re: social norms and you

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Shem Yoshi wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:25 pm
help3434 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:20 pm [Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #7]

The negative effects of being exposed to sex too early:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5435379 and imbalanced power dynamic between a teenager and an adult are two reasons why it is a very bad idea.
How do we even conclude that suffering is wrong? Nietzsche said, “what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger.”.. Paul Said "take joy in your tribulations"
I don't think all suffering makes people stronger. It can make people weaker. There is a wide gulf in not being so shielded from the challenges of life that you don't learn problem solving skills and discipline, and being molested and enslaved.

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