Dear Christians of all flavor(s),
I trust it is no surprise there exists a populous here, which lay claim to 'atheism', 'deism', or maybe other... In a nutshell, for me, this ultimately means I do not believe any such claimed Christian God exists - trying though as I might.... Which-is-to-mean, I was raised in a Christian house hold. However, after much study, I cannot get myself to belief such a claimed agent actually exists. Chalk it up, ultimately, to the topic of 'divine hiddenness' I guess...?
It is also evident there exists devout 'Christians' in this arena, of all flavors, who may feel they are 'fighting the good fight'; by defending their belief(s)/faith/rationale in the assertion of the existence to the "Christian God".
That being said, I am laying down the gauntlet, so-to-speak... Some here, as well as outside of here, are as sure as anything, that not only does God exist, but the Christian God! Well, I politely disagree. Meaning, I don't believe the "Christian based" assertion/claim.
I can't imagine this request will be anything new. Nor, can I imagine that I will encounter any new sort of enlightenment. But, being this is a rather large and important topic; I will continue to search, optimistically, that there exists some sort of 'concrete evidence(s)' to demonstrate that not only a God exists ---> but also the Christian God.
For Debate:
Please demonstrate the mere existence of the Christian God?
Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
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Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #1In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #571Bible God is from a fictional story too. You can have as much faith as you like, but that doesn't make the existence of God any more true than fairies or whatever.Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:00 pmbrunumb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:54 pmThe nature of Tinkerbell and other fairies, leprechauns, ghosts, the supernatural and so on all call for faith to believe.Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:32 pm Well the nature of the Christian God calls for faith to believe.
If Tinkerbell and other fairies, leprechauns, ghosts, the supernatural and so on are true, then it is true that some will not believe, regardless of who said it.Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:32 pm If Christianity is true then it is true that some will not believe, for the Christian God says some will not believe (like in the parable of the sower).
The fact that some don't believe Tinkerbell and other fairies, leprechauns, ghosts, the supernatural and so on are true supports them being true....Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:32 pm If So the fact that some dont believe supports Christianity being true...
Can't help but laugh about the last bit.
Can you provide evidence for this statement "The nature of Tinkerbell and other fairies, leprechauns, ghosts, the supernatural and so on all call for faith to believe."
That leprechauns call for faith to believe? Where does it call for faith to believe in Ghosts? Or tinkerbell?
Tinkerbell is from a fictional story. Fairies and leprechauns are fables, and ghost might be unexplainable phenomenon. I assume faith has nothing to do with any of them.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #572Some people think the earth is flat. You are entitled to your opinion.brunumb wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:20 amBible God is from a fictional story too. You can have as much faith as you like, but that doesn't make the existence of God any more true than fairies or whatever.Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:00 pmbrunumb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:54 pmThe nature of Tinkerbell and other fairies, leprechauns, ghosts, the supernatural and so on all call for faith to believe.Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:32 pm Well the nature of the Christian God calls for faith to believe.
If Tinkerbell and other fairies, leprechauns, ghosts, the supernatural and so on are true, then it is true that some will not believe, regardless of who said it.Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:32 pm If Christianity is true then it is true that some will not believe, for the Christian God says some will not believe (like in the parable of the sower).
The fact that some don't believe Tinkerbell and other fairies, leprechauns, ghosts, the supernatural and so on are true supports them being true....Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:32 pm If So the fact that some dont believe supports Christianity being true...
Can't help but laugh about the last bit.
Can you provide evidence for this statement "The nature of Tinkerbell and other fairies, leprechauns, ghosts, the supernatural and so on all call for faith to believe."
That leprechauns call for faith to believe? Where does it call for faith to believe in Ghosts? Or tinkerbell?
Tinkerbell is from a fictional story. Fairies and leprechauns are fables, and ghost might be unexplainable phenomenon. I assume faith has nothing to do with any of them.
“Them that die'll be the lucky ones.”
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #573Earth is demonstrably not flat. Some people think God is real. You are entitled to your opinion.Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:02 pm Some people think the earth is flat. You are entitled to your opinion.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #574Seems there have been more than a few instances of people linking the concepts of love and divinity throughout history:DaveD49 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:26 am I firmly believe that God IS pure love. I believe that our task in this physical world is to learn to love selflessly so that we can be one with Him in a perfect love.
<snip>
I believe that it is only when we truly learn to selflessly love others that we are ready to encounter God whom I see as perfect love.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... st_deities
Feeling loved is found on the third level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Humans have evolved to be highly social creatures, so that’s no surprise. And when you talk of ‘selfless love’, it’s true that there are different types of love: the first crush is different from the altruistic love offered to a relative in palliative care for instance.
Pick any desirable human quality you like: power, good judgement, love, wisdom. People throughout history have ascribed these qualities to gods because of a belief that only a god can be ‘most powerful’, or most loving, etc. I’d argue that it’s a pattern of behaviour that doesn’t necessarily suggest any greater ‘maturity’ in thinking.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #575It's still real to me, dang it!brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 6:09 pmThe same way you grow to love anyone while in their presence. Loving an absent God is like a teenager falling in love with a pop star through the poster on their wall. As intense as it might feel, it's not real love. It's infatuation based on wishful thinking.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #576It might be that I'm Teddy Roosevelt.Shem Yoshi wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:35 pm ...
it might be that a spherical earth is the best explanation of the evidence, it might be that Jesus Resurrection is the best explanation of the evidence.
"It might be" is a poor means of establishing truth.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #577[Replying to Diagoras in post #574]
Diagiras:"Seems there have been more than a few instances of people linking the concepts of love and divinity throughout history:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... st_deities
Feeling loved is found on the third level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Humans have evolved to be highly social creatures, so that’s no surprise. And when you talk of ‘selfless love’, it’s true that there are different types of love: the first crush is different from the altruistic love offered to a relative in palliative care for instance.
Pick any desirable human quality you like: power, good judgement, love, wisdom. People throughout history have ascribed these qualities to gods because of a belief that only a god can be ‘most powerful’, or most loving, etc. I’d argue that it’s a pattern of behaviour that doesn’t necessarily suggest any greater ‘maturity’ in thinking."
Obviously there are many different levels of love, and unfortunately what most people to mean when they talk about love is the lowest form of "love" which is sex which is most often essentially self love. It is unfortunate that many people enter a sexual relationship not thinking really at all about the other but just thinking about themselves. I talk about "pure selfless love" and then you link it to a site about lust gods. Sure it is true that you can pick any negative desire and you can find a ancient god linked to it. But we do not live in those places and times, do we? And we are not talking about ancient gods which few if any worship today but rather the one true God and the properties that He has been shown to possess. And this I know from my own personal experiences which, of course, means nothing to you. What you apparently fail to see is that NONE of those so-called gods are worshipped today except by people which we might call "depraved". Most of those thousands and thousands of god-centered religions that people worshipped in the past are gone and in their place remain mainly just Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Judaism. All of which are centered on God as pure love. Why are these the only ones left? Because through time when people have found greater truth in a different religion than their own they switch. And that development through time is the "maturity of thinking" you should be talking about, not trying to compare modern religions to ancient ones..
Diagiras:"Seems there have been more than a few instances of people linking the concepts of love and divinity throughout history:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... st_deities
Feeling loved is found on the third level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Humans have evolved to be highly social creatures, so that’s no surprise. And when you talk of ‘selfless love’, it’s true that there are different types of love: the first crush is different from the altruistic love offered to a relative in palliative care for instance.
Pick any desirable human quality you like: power, good judgement, love, wisdom. People throughout history have ascribed these qualities to gods because of a belief that only a god can be ‘most powerful’, or most loving, etc. I’d argue that it’s a pattern of behaviour that doesn’t necessarily suggest any greater ‘maturity’ in thinking."
Obviously there are many different levels of love, and unfortunately what most people to mean when they talk about love is the lowest form of "love" which is sex which is most often essentially self love. It is unfortunate that many people enter a sexual relationship not thinking really at all about the other but just thinking about themselves. I talk about "pure selfless love" and then you link it to a site about lust gods. Sure it is true that you can pick any negative desire and you can find a ancient god linked to it. But we do not live in those places and times, do we? And we are not talking about ancient gods which few if any worship today but rather the one true God and the properties that He has been shown to possess. And this I know from my own personal experiences which, of course, means nothing to you. What you apparently fail to see is that NONE of those so-called gods are worshipped today except by people which we might call "depraved". Most of those thousands and thousands of god-centered religions that people worshipped in the past are gone and in their place remain mainly just Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Judaism. All of which are centered on God as pure love. Why are these the only ones left? Because through time when people have found greater truth in a different religion than their own they switch. And that development through time is the "maturity of thinking" you should be talking about, not trying to compare modern religions to ancient ones..
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #578Maybe if those believers weren't wiped out by those who consider themselves believers in "The One True God(tm)", they'd be around today.DaveD49 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:02 am ...
And we are not talking about ancient gods which few if any worship today but rather the one true God and the properties that He has been shown to possess. And this I know from my own personal experiences which, of course, means nothing to you. What you apparently fail to see is that NONE of those so-called gods are worshipped today except by people which we might call "depraved".
I find it quite insulting, intellectually and morally, when one bunch of religious zealots calls another bunch of religious zealots "depraved", when can't none in neither bunch put one iota of truth to their god claims.
Instead we get the typical insults and slanders, and threats of condemnation simply cause someone doesn't worship the same Tooth Fairy.
Your comment here is what is most depraved, that you think only you know "The One True God(tm)".
Your comment on the depravity of others sits there, steaming in the cold November air. It's just a shame we can't rub your nose in it.
So, have you stoned you a homosexual today? Have you sold everything you own in service to others? Have you lifted one finger, today to feed and shelter the less fortunate?...
Most of those thousands and thousands of god-centered religions that people worshipped in the past are gone and in their place remain mainly just Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Judaism. All of which are centered on God as pure love. Why are these the only ones left? Because through time when people have found greater truth in a different religion than their own they switch. And that development through time is the "maturity of thinking" you should be talking about, not trying to compare modern religions to ancient ones..[/color]
Or have you sat on your fourth point of contact, pontificating on the depravity of other religions that were most likely wiped out in wars of religious aggression, or through laws and such that prevented believers their right to believe?
"Depraved" is the idiot thinking he ain't guilty of the charge he so libelously tosses out against others.
Go sit on a turkey carcass.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #579<bolding mine>
Got a cite for that ‘most’?
I agree.It is unfortunate that many people enter a sexual relationship not thinking really at all about the other but just thinking about themselves.
Could this be a ‘no true love god’-type fallacy, I wonder…?I talk about "pure selfless love" and then you link it to a site about lust gods.
You’ll be thrilled to hear I’m in agreement with you here.Sure it is true that you can pick any negative desire and you can find a (sic) ancient god linked to it.
No, we don’t.But we do not live in those places and times, do we?
And we are not talking about ancient gods which few if any worship today but rather the one true God and the properties that He has been shown to possess.
<bolding mine>
Just highlighting the parts where you got a teensy bit ahead of providing any evidence for your claims.
Well, I haven’t been given any details, so it’s kinda hard to find any meaning in such a vague statement.And this I know from my own personal experiences which, of course, means nothing to you.
Oh, I do see - and approve of the general declining belief in gods around the world.What you apparently fail to see is that NONE of those so-called gods are worshipped today
I suggest such broad-brush derogatory labelling is unproductive.except by people which we might call "depraved".
We share the same level of unbelief in thousands and thousands of gods, then.Most of those thousands and thousands of god-centered religions that people worshipped in the past are gone
I’d like to see a case made for the Hindu pantheon as ‘centred on pure love’. You may be over-reaching again.and in their place remain mainly just Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Judaism. All of which are centered on God as pure love.
Actually a great question, and worthy of its own debate. I don’t have a particular view at the moment but suspect there’s a lot of geopolitical factors in play.Why are these the only ones left?
Isn’t there a possibility of accidentally switching to a ‘lesser truth’ - like, say, from Christianity to Islam?Because through time when people have found greater truth in a different religion than their own they switch.
But Christianity is an ancient religion. It’s two thousand years old. Wouldn’t Mormonism therefore be ‘more mature’ in its thinking?And that development through time is the "maturity of thinking" you should be talking about, not trying to compare modern religions to ancient ones.
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Re: Okay, Let's Cut To The Chase!
Post #580I do not reject your notion. I showed it to be false.
Education shows us that horses don't fly. Indoctrinating children is what fosters such a belief. This is why you are wrong and I cannot therefore agree to disagree.
Look, nothing about talking donkeys, snakes, living in a fish for 3 days, sorcering up fishes and loaves of bread, walking on water or liquified corpses returning to life! Just a flying horse.
So you can call teaching children that horses can fly an education, but you will still be wrong.
Can you not refute my words? Is pretending to be a victim the best you can do?
Why is it to educate our children when Muslims tell them that a horse flew? Why is that not indoctrination? Would you argue that the children are accepting this belief critically? What about a belief that we should stone homosexuals? Do Muslims educate their children into such a belief?
in·doc·tri·na·tion
/inˌdäktrəˈnāSHən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
ed·u·ca·tion
/ˌejəˈkāSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
the process of receiving or giving systematic instruction, especially at a school or university.
You still a victim? Tell me more about my close-mindedness and what that means for me please.Your close-mindedness leaves no room for the talking about the Divine whatsoever.
I also believe that this is the second or third time you have worked in an insult into your statements to me. That has no place in any forum that is supposed to be an intelligent discussion.
Pot, meet kettle... I cannot learn from you if you are going to pretend to be a victim and not debate how you feel it is Muslims providing an education and not indoctrination into believing in the flying horse or the stoning of homosexuals.
You also have brought up things from the Bible such as talking donkeys, and a person living in a fish which I have never mentioned.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb