.
I just heard this statement by a person who is much in the news these days.
Is this a valid statement?
Does anyone have the right to express such confidence?
What would qualify one to feel this confidence?
I'll refrain for now from reveling the identity of the person who made this claim. If a robust discussion develops, I'll reveal their identity and then we can discuss if that changes any opinions.
Tcg
"I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
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"I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #1To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Re: "I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #21One main reason is that you cannot reasonably divide all humanity into worthy of heave or hell, because there is a sliding scale of morality. How can you send a person to eternal torture while the next person to eternal bliss because he put a dollar more in the collection tin than the other. It is absurd.1213 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:28 amPlease explain why it is absurd.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:33 am I am pretty sure that the concept of Hell is absurd....
And if you then bite the bullet and say 'It's not works, but Faith' and what you believe counts rather than what you do, this is inherently such an absurd system that Christians have talked themselves into talking of deeds father than Faith being the arbiter.
We then get problems like how with a brain such as we have, how would eternal life (even if it was tailor made to fulfil our every wish) not become a bore after the first billion years and a torment after the second? And you still have Eternity to go. Torment without relief indeed. "How I wish I'd opted for Oblivion, like the atheists!" And 'oblivion'is effectively what you get if you claim (on no knowledge but just a way of evading problems) that God gets you on an eternal High so you efectively have no human fouiblesleft. It isn't You any more.
That three off the top of my head.
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Re: "I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #22As far as I can tell no one has mentioned legal rights. JW seems to have said, and I agree with this, that it is reasonable and credible to claim to make. The first post rightly points out that fear is a feeling. The only prerequisite to (honestly) claim to not fear something is that the person does not fear that thing.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:33 amI am pretty sure that the concept of Hell is absurd. And even those who believe it can't be sure that they have the right religious, denomination or even correct translation of their Holy Book. They could end up in their hell along with the atheists. If I am to lean a bit too heavily on my own take on it, the confidence of various believers that if hell is real, they have got right and they are safe. My take is that self - confidence that they are Right is rather good evidence that they are wrong.1213 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:15 amBut are you sure that you are correct? How you can be sure?TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:50 pm ...But what atheism gives me is, I do not fear Hell. Now these people may say they do not fear Hell because they believe the right religion, and that brings up the question of - are they sure they have the right one? ...
This also is not for to make anyone fear hell, I don't think there is any good reason to fear hell, all though I believe it is real.
In what way do you think the claim is lacks logical or evidential validity? What exactly is wrong with it?
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin
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Re: "I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #23By what the Bible tells, the eternal life comes on basis is person righteous or not. Obviously, God can look who are righteous and who are not.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:30 pmOne main reason is that you cannot reasonably divide all humanity into worthy of heave or hell, because there is a sliding scale of morality. How can you send a person to eternal torture while the next person to eternal bliss because he put a dollar more in the collection tin than the other. It is absurd.1213 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:28 amPlease explain why it is absurd.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:33 am I am pretty sure that the concept of Hell is absurd....
And if you then bite the bullet and say 'It's not works, but Faith' and what you believe counts rather than what you do, this is inherently such an absurd system that Christians have talked themselves into talking of deeds father than Faith being the arbiter.
We then get problems like how with a brain such as we have, how would eternal life (even if it was tailor made to fulfil our every wish) not become a bore after the first billion years and a torment after the second? And you still have Eternity to go. Torment without relief indeed. "How I wish I'd opted for Oblivion, like the atheists!" And 'oblivion'is effectively what you get if you claim (on no knowledge but just a way of evading problems) that God gets you on an eternal High so you efectively have no human fouiblesleft. It isn't You any more.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
And hell is a place where person is totally destroyed, both body and soul. Not a place where people live eternally.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
Time is not a problem, when you learn to live in a moment.
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Re: "I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #24I don't see what legal (man - made Law) rights has to do with the fear of death (a biological instinct) or fear of hell. Now the reson not to fear Hell is that one does not believe that there is such a thing.bjs1 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:06 amAs far as I can tell no one has mentioned legal rights. JW seems to have said, and I agree with this, that it is reasonable and credible to claim to make. The first post rightly points out that fear is a feeling. The only prerequisite to (honestly) claim to not fear something is that the person does not fear that thing.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:33 amI am pretty sure that the concept of Hell is absurd. And even those who believe it can't be sure that they have the right religious, denomination or even correct translation of their Holy Book. They could end up in their hell along with the atheists. If I am to lean a bit too heavily on my own take on it, the confidence of various believers that if hell is real, they have got right and they are safe. My take is that self - confidence that they are Right is rather good evidence that they are wrong.1213 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:15 amBut are you sure that you are correct? How you can be sure?TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:50 pm ...But what atheism gives me is, I do not fear Hell. Now these people may say they do not fear Hell because they believe the right religion, and that brings up the question of - are they sure they have the right one? ...
This also is not for to make anyone fear hell, I don't think there is any good reason to fear hell, all though I believe it is real.
In what way do you think the claim is lacks logical or evidential validity? What exactly is wrong with it?
I see no good reason to credit what either Matthew or Paul claim. Looking back at the Topic, it is valid for the Christian to claim they do not feat death, or rather, what death may bring, because they believe they are saved. Valid in that they beleive that,whereas atheists don't feat it because they don't believe it. But I reckon that Christians are not justified in their belief in an afterlife, never mind that their belief will get them a good deal in it, or indeed that what the understand it about it from the Bible is correct or that the Bible is reliable. The Believers take a hell of a lot for granted on Faith.1213 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:53 amBy what the Bible tells, the eternal life comes on basis is person righteous or not. Obviously, God can look who are righteous and who are not.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:30 pmOne main reason is that you cannot reasonably divide all humanity into worthy of heave or hell, because there is a sliding scale of morality. How can you send a person to eternal torture while the next person to eternal bliss because he put a dollar more in the collection tin than the other. It is absurd.1213 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:28 amPlease explain why it is absurd.TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:33 am I am pretty sure that the concept of Hell is absurd....
And if you then bite the bullet and say 'It's not works, but Faith' and what you believe counts rather than what you do, this is inherently such an absurd system that Christians have talked themselves into talking of deeds father than Faith being the arbiter.
We then get problems like how with a brain such as we have, how would eternal life (even if it was tailor made to fulfil our every wish) not become a bore after the first billion years and a torment after the second? And you still have Eternity to go. Torment without relief indeed. "How I wish I'd opted for Oblivion, like the atheists!" And 'oblivion'is effectively what you get if you claim (on no knowledge but just a way of evading problems) that God gets you on an eternal High so you efectively have no human fouiblesleft. It isn't You any more.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
And hell is a place where person is totally destroyed, both body and soul. Not a place where people live eternally.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
Time is not a problem, when you learn to live in a moment.
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Re: "I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #25The quote I presented in the O.P. is from Darrel Brooks and was given during the sentencing phase of his murder trial. He is perhaps better known as the Waukesha Christmas Parade murderer. During his testimony he also stated the following: "I am a million percent confident of where I am going when this is all over."Tcg wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:33 pmI'll add more later but suffice it to say for now that this quote comes from the Christian Darrell Brooks.Tcg wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 2:48 pm .
I just heard this statement by a person who is much in the news these days.
Is this a valid statement?
Does anyone have the right to express such confidence?
What would qualify one to feel this confidence?
I'll refrain for now from reveling the identity of the person who made this claim. If a robust discussion develops, I'll reveal their identity and then we can discuss if that changes any opinions.
Tcg
Tcg
For those who aren't familiar with the case, in November of last year the Christian Darrel Brooks drove his mother's SUV into numerous individuals marching in a parade to celebrate Christmas. In doing so he murdered 6 people and seriously injured 61 others. He was convicted on all counts and will likely spend the rest of his life behind bars.
The following video contains his testimony which includes the above quotes:
It's a two-hour rambling mess so if you want to skip that que up the time to 1:00:23 for the first quote and 1:01:35 for the second if interested.
We often hear that theism and Christianity in particular has a superior standard on which to base morality. Some even claim its objective. Why did it fail so miserably here where a long time Christian in a fit of rage intentionally murdered 6 people and seriously injured 61 others? Of course, if Darrell is right, and there is much in the Bible and Christian theology to show that he is, he will spend eternity in heaven. Perhaps even with some of those he murdered. Nice eternity, huh?
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Re: "I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #26To be a Christian is not biblically speaking a mere label, it is descriptive of how one behaves. Since Christ taught his followers to love, even their enemies; anyone that turns to violence in such a way forfeits the right to be identified as "Christian". In biblical terms'then, such a person is a non-believer.
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: "I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #27This is often conveniently forgotten and non-believers thus incorrectly critique an offenders word as trumping what is written, rather than the other way around.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:54 pmTo be a Christian is not biblically speaking a mere label, it is descriptive of how one behaves. Since Christ taught his followers to love, even their enemies; anyone that turns to violence in such a way forfeits the right to be identified as "Christian". In biblical terms'then, such a person is a non-believer.
JW
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Re: "I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #28This is an example of the hypocrisy and crafty dishonesty of religion and its' doings. Succinctly, Take the best that human morality can come up with and Hi -jack it to the credit of the religion. Confuse the morality with adherence to the religion, so belonging to the party become 'Good'. if anyone in the party doesn't do Good...hypocrisy of the Third kind.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:54 pmTo be a Christian is not biblically speaking a mere label, it is descriptive of how one behaves. Since Christ taught his followers to love, even their enemies; anyone that turns to violence in such a way forfeits the right to be identified as "Christian". In biblical terms'then, such a person is a non-believer.
JW
(1) deny and cover up
(2) exhibition repentance and forgiveness
(3) He was never really one of us, anyway. probably an atheist, deep down.
I thank nongod three times a day that I am not a religious believer.
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Re: "I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #29[Replying to Tcg in post #1]
What we find in this case is a Christian who believes that they are "in Christ" and therefore doesn't fear the consequences of their murderous actions. They consider this lifetime a brief prelude to an eternal life they'll spend with some of the individuals they murdered in the previous one. So much for the superiority of Christian morality.
Tcg
What we find in this case is a Christian who believes that they are "in Christ" and therefore doesn't fear the consequences of their murderous actions. They consider this lifetime a brief prelude to an eternal life they'll spend with some of the individuals they murdered in the previous one. So much for the superiority of Christian morality.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Re: "I do not fear death because I am in Christ."
Post #30This is a strange statement. Do you know a lot of Christians who regularly commit murder? If you mean this in the historical sense then it is worth remembering that atheists have killed far more people in the name of ending religion than religious people killed in order to spread their religion.Tcg wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:07 am [Replying to Tcg in post #1]
What we find in this case is a Christian who believes that they are "in Christ" and therefore doesn't fear the consequences of their murderous actions. They consider this lifetime a brief prelude to an eternal life they'll spend with some of the individuals they murdered in the previous one. So much for the superiority of Christian morality.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin
-Charles Darwin