Two of the constant things I have heard from atheists on other sites is that first "There is no proof of God" and "There is no evidence for God". The first can be dismissed because to the total impossibility of there being "proof". The ONLY things that can be scientifically proven are within the universe. Anything outside of the universe or non-physical can only be theorized about, but NO "theory" is proof of anything. So, just as there can be no "proof" for God, nor can there be proof of alternate universes, membranes producing endless universes, etc. etc. In as far as the second assertion, that there is no evidence for God, that one is blatantly false as evidence for Him exists in many, many different categories. It is my intention to list some of them one at a time so as to get everyone's reaction as to the viability or lack thereof of the evidence presented. I realize that some, if not all, of these you have heard before and may have actually responded to. I already listed a few of the in a response to a earlier question, but I think that they will only get the attention they deserve if listed individually.
Topic for Debate: Do you agree or disagree with the following being evidence for the existence of God?
In answering please state clearly whether you agree or disagree
Your reasoning for doing so
Please rate from 1 to 10 with 10 being the strongest what you feel the strength of the evidence is.
If you have something further to add please let me know.
#1 The Existence of Scientific Laws
Everything about mathematics involves intelligence. One cannot add 1+1 without the intelligence to do so. Randomness cannot produce intelligence. No matter how many monkeys you have banging away on typewriters for whatever length of time, it is highly unlikely that any of them will ever produce the complete works of Shakespeare. They won’t produce even one of his sonnets. But even if they did that would be a semblance of intelligence, not the real thing. Intelligence would only be shown if the task could be repeated many times.
Therefore, the very existence of scientific LAWS, such as the Law of Gravity or the Law of Thermodynamics, is firm evidence of an intelligent being who is in some way responsible for the existence of everything. In our society are human laws just random words on a piece of paper? No. They show purpose and meaning which positively proves an intelligence behind them. In reality man-made "laws" are not laws at all, but rather rules which can be broken. However scientific laws can not be broken thus making them unlike civil laws. But they BOTH show a purpose. But in the case of scientific laws without them the universe could never exist. There is no reason why a universe created by randomness should be compelled to obey ANY laws, let alone display complex mathematics. Intelligence is absolutely necessary.
Evidence for God #1
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Re: Evidence for God #1
Post #91Fallacy. At best is is an unexplained (why mathematics appears to follow universal rules) and at worth it is taking human language, and by Mystifying it, claims it must be down to a god. Now, I'm no mathematician so I can't say whether it gets beyond being a language to more like a universal physical law, but even if it was, like nuclear constants, ascribing what is unexplained is classic 'Gap for God' fallacy. It also seems to me the same problem with Christian apologetcs using philosophy as with Christian apologetics using science: the argument is going to be skewed from the start because the argument is going to be wangled towards the God they think exist, on Faith. In fact even where the argument is otherwise fine and heading for 'We don't have the answer', it is taken by the God apologists to actually be 'God is the answer'. But that is the most circular of circular arguments - the claims is used to to validate the claim.AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:06 pmYou are right in the sense that it hinges on mathematical realism. You have to read his justifications for and against mathematical realism. This is just a syllogism. It doesn't do the work of the argument. It should not convince anyone of anything other than hey, maybe I should look at what the evidence is for the applicability of mathematics not being a coincidence. I will link to the full argument again.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:24 pm1. Why?AquinasForGod wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:58 pm 1. If God does not exist, then the applicability of mathematics would be a happy coincidence.
2. The applicability of mathematics is not a happy coincidence.
3. Therefore, God exists.
2. Who says?
3. Dodgy conclusion.
What about...
1. If God exists, then the applicability of mathematics would not be a happy coincidence.
2. The applicability of mathematics is a happy coincidence.
3. Therefore, God does not exist.
It all depends on whether the premises are justified, or not. Really just a lot of word games.
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writing ... athematics
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Re: Evidence for God #1
Post #92I don't think any of these laws need a designing hand. But if someone says a universe with laws is more likely designed as opposed to a universe without any laws, I'd tentatively agree.brunumb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:41 amWhy would it be chaos? What order we see in the universe seem to be largely due to gravity. Did gravity need a designing hand behind it?Purple Knight wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:01 pm What then would the undesigned universe look like? Would we even be able to perceive it? It would be chaos, wouldn't it?
My problem comes in where we cannot possibly observe if the evidence indicated oppositely so we're reading off a compass we know is effectively busted (we can't trust the reading) if not actually busted.
Theist: This compass [presence/absence of laws, rules, order] is pointing north [indicating that there are laws, rules, and order], so that way is probably north [seems to indicate the presence of a designer].
Me: That sounds fair on the face of it. But is it possible for the compass to point south [indicate absence of laws, rules, order] and thus probably the absence of a designer?
Theist: Well, yes but... This particular compass [rules, laws, order] is hooked up to our brains and if it ever did not point north, these strings here would rip the consciousness out of our brains and black out or memory.
Me: So it could have pointed south just now and you wouldn't remember it.
Theist: Well yes.
No I'm not requesting that. I'm not asking to observe God. If you're saying rules and laws prove God I'm not even questioning that. I'm saying we'd need to reference a place without laws, rules, and order to make that kind of inference.William wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:41 pm [Replying to Purple Knight in post #52]
All that is required for me personally, is evidence from this universe that it is a created thing. I have no interest is trying to or demanding the necessity to, observe whatever created it.In a way though, saying that logic (rules, laws, order) exists proves anything is sort of assuming your conclusion, because we'd need a way to observe this thing that supposedly proves it not being true if it indeed was not true.
I'm saying we can't rely on evidence indicating anything if that evidence cannot possibly indicate the opposite way.
I've actually thought about this a lot and I can give you a really simple analogy.
Theist: This compass [presence/absence of laws, rules, order] is pointing north [indicating that there are laws, rules, and order], so that way is probably north [seems to indicate the presence of a designer].
Me: That sounds fair on the face of it. But is it possible for the compass to point south [indicate absence of laws, rules, order] and thus probably the absence of a designer?
Theist: Well, yes but... This particular compass [rules, laws, order] is hooked up to our brains and if it ever did not point north, these strings here would rip the consciousness out of our brains and black out or memory.
Me: So it could have pointed south just now and you wouldn't remember it.
Theist: Well yes.
I agree that it seems unlikely a monkey could do that. The problem is that we're using this compass [presence/absence of rules, laws, and order] that points north [indicates rules, laws, and order are present]. Okay, it points north. But a compass that can't point any other way than north is a busted compass. If we lived in the absence of rules, laws, and order, there would be no compass to indicate that.DaveD49 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:18 pmMost likely an "undesigned" universes could never possibly exist. In the Multiverse concept (which was invented for the sole purpose of trying to dispute the realization of the exact fine tuning of all the laws and constants of the universe which points to the existence of God), our universe just happen to be the one which got it write. It is the monkey who banged on a typewriter and typed out exactly the complete works of William Shakespeare.
Theist: This compass [presence/absence of laws, rules, order] is pointing north [indicating that there are laws, rules, and order], so that way is probably north [seems to indicate the presence of a designer].
Me: That sounds fair on the face of it. But is it possible for the compass to point south [indicate absence of laws, rules, order] and thus probably the absence of a designer?
Theist: Well, yes but... This particular compass [rules, laws, order] is hooked up to our brains and if it ever did not point north, these strings here would rip the consciousness out of our brains and black out or memory.
Me: So it could have pointed south just now and you wouldn't remember it.
Theist: Well yes.
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Re: Evidence for God #1
Post #93[Replying to Purple Knight in post #92]
If I existed within a place without laws, rules, and order I would not consider it to be a created thing, although I would not know how to explain why a conscious entity would be able to evolve in such a universe, in order for it to be able to consider such things in the first place.
So we are left with the idea that a conscious personality within something it is experiencing - such as this universe - can be comfortable with the understanding that what is being experienced, is a created thing.
All that is required for me personally, is evidence from this universe that it is a created thing. I have no interest is trying to or demanding the necessity to, observe whatever created it.
I say the rules and law of nature provide me enough evidence to support the notion that we exist within a created thing.No I'm not requesting that. I'm not asking to observe God. If you're saying rules and laws prove God I'm not even questioning that. I'm saying we'd need to reference a place without laws, rules, and order to make that kind of inference.
If I existed within a place without laws, rules, and order I would not consider it to be a created thing, although I would not know how to explain why a conscious entity would be able to evolve in such a universe, in order for it to be able to consider such things in the first place.
So we are left with the idea that a conscious personality within something it is experiencing - such as this universe - can be comfortable with the understanding that what is being experienced, is a created thing.
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Re: Evidence for God #1
Post #94Since the universe is all of space and time, that is all there is. To speak of something beyond the universe is a contradiction in terms, a fantasy. But then, that is what religion is, fantasy, the realm of gods and goblins, fairies and figments of imagination. Of course there is no evidence, no 'proof' of god any more than there is proof of other fantasies.
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Re: Evidence for God #1
Post #95[Replying to Diogenes in post #94
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.
---Albert Einstein
And we have no way of knowing how much space and time there is.Since the universe is all of space and time, that is all there is.
But then, that is what religion is, fantasy, the realm of gods and goblins, fairies and figments of imagination.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.
---Albert Einstein
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Re: Evidence for God #1
Post #96And we have no business telling ourselves that we know anything about it, until we know something about it.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:39 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #94
And we have no way of knowing how much space and time there is.Since the universe is all of space and time, that is all there is.
But then, that is what religion is, fantasy, the realm of gods and goblins, fairies and figments of imagination.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.
---Albert Einstein
Imagination is fine; love it, but it must be tempered with Reason.Not just imagining stuff and thinking it must be true. Einstein's theory of relativity was not fully accepted until it was proven by experiment. Same with Black holes and the Higgs -Boson.
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Re: Evidence for God #1
Post #97Both of which remain true.
So the better term then'd be "hypothesized", as in "I've hypothesized God exists, it's just these dagblamed atheists keep asking for evidence, or proof, and I'm tearing my hair out over here about it."The first can be dismissed because to the total impossibility of there being "proof". The ONLY things that can be scientifically proven are within the universe. Anything outside of the universe or non-physical can only be theorized about, but NO "theory" is proof of anything.
So we ask the alternate universe folks, that bunch of membrane producing endless universe zealots to produce some means by which we may confirm they speak truth.So, just as there can be no "proof" for God, nor can there be proof of alternate universes, membranes producing endless universes, etc. etc.
And that's the exact same question we ask of the Truth(tm) bunch. Only it is, the truth is they got more complaints on the getting asked than they have on the evidence for producing proof.
For each and every individual piece of data you present as evidence for a god or gods, I can, with equal validity, assert such is because of magical billy goats sneaking into grammaw's medicine jug.In as far as the second assertion, that there is no evidence for God, that one is blatantly false as evidence for Him exists in many, many different categories.
Y'all religious folks sure like to tell rules, but here we go......
Topic for Debate: Do you agree or disagree with the following being evidence for the existence of God?[/u][/i][/b]
In answering please state clearly whether you agree or disagree
Your reasoning for doing so
Please rate from 1 to 10 with 10 being the strongest what you feel the strength of the evidence is.
If you have something further to add please let me know.
Only superficially.#1 The Existence of Scientific Laws
Everything about mathematics involves intelligence.
If pretty thing leaves out two pies to cool, and one of em shows up missing, her hypothetical inability to count up to two, so she could subtract her back down to one, ain't got nothing to do with it. She sees her a pie missing. So, without one single math class necessary, I done learned one pie missing is equal to one me getting a fussing.
Some math can be intuited, regardless of one's inability to put it into symbols, or to even understand math is involved
Don't none of y'all teach this'n long division, they'll be sacrificing newborns!One cannot add 1+1 without the intelligence to do so.
I'll leave the rest of your post rest for now. It's clear all you have's logic leaps that'd shame Superman.
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Re: Evidence for God #1
Post #98Fine----as long as the principle is applied to theTRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:08 pmAnd we have no business telling ourselves that we know anything about it, until we know something about it.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:39 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #94
And we have no way of knowing how much space and time there is.Since the universe is all of space and time, that is all there is.
But then, that is what religion is, fantasy, the realm of gods and goblins, fairies and figments of imagination.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.
---Albert Einstein
Imagination is fine; love it, but it must be tempered with Reason.Not just imagining stuff and thinking it must be true. Einstein's theory of relativity was not fully accepted until it was proven by experiment. Same with Black holes and the Higgs -Boson.
assumption made above as well.religion is, fantasy, the realm of gods and goblins, fairies and figments of imagination
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Re: Evidence for God #1
Post #99So when we apply reason to god claims, well there we go.Athetotheist wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:57 am ...
...Fine----as long as the principle is applied to theTRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:08 pm ...
Imagination is fine; love it, but it must be tempered with Reason.Not just imagining stuff and thinking it must be true. Einstein's theory of relativity was not fully accepted until it was proven by experiment. Same with Black holes and the Higgs -Boson.
assumption made above as well.religion is, fantasy, the realm of gods and goblins, fairies and figments of imagination
The only difference between gods and dragons is how many folks believe in em.
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Re: Evidence for God #1
Post #100[Replying to Purple Knight in post #92]
Why to you type both sides of a conversation without asking a theist if that is what they would actually say?
Oh, and a compass does point south at the same time it is pointing north. Not only that but there have been quite a few times in Earth's history that the magnetic poles have switched. If that happened compasses would point south.
Why to you type both sides of a conversation without asking a theist if that is what they would actually say?
Oh, and a compass does point south at the same time it is pointing north. Not only that but there have been quite a few times in Earth's history that the magnetic poles have switched. If that happened compasses would point south.