Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

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Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #1

Post by Rational Atheist »

Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.

1. Our thoughts determine our choices.

2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.

3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.

I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #301

Post by William »

[Replying to Kylie in post #300]

But we CAN choose whether to act on our thoughts. that's what happens every time you make a decision. Or do you believe that you play no part in the decision making process?
I gave my viewpoint in post#174

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #302

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:53 pm [Replying to Kylie in post #300]

But we CAN choose whether to act on our thoughts. that's what happens every time you make a decision. Or do you believe that you play no part in the decision making process?
I gave my viewpoint in post#174
Your position wasn't very clear.

In any case, you said that part of the argument against us having free will is that we do not choose our thoughts. But part of where our thoughts come from is our previous experiences. So what if we intentionally give ourselves experiences in order to create specific thought patterns? A person who has subjected themselves to many hours watching The Simpsons is going to have a very specific thought if they hear someone shout out, DENTAL PLAN! And someone who has not watched the Simpsons is not going to have that same thought.

Another example. I've been a Star Trek fan ever since I was in high school, probably the early 90s. I've seen every episode that's been released (up to and including the latest episode of Star Trek Prodigy) and I have seen much of it more times than I can count. It played a HUGE part in me being the person I am today. It has without any doubt been a major influence on the way I look at things. By deliberately exposing myself to the stories shown in Star Trek, I have in essence programmed my brain to think a certain way. Does that not count as choosing my thoughts?

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #303

Post by William »

[Replying to Kylie in post #302]
you said that part of the argument against us having free will is that we do not choose our thoughts
Did I?

Can you show the reader where I said that.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #304

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:12 pm [Replying to Kylie in post #302]
you said that part of the argument against us having free will is that we do not choose our thoughts
Did I?

Can you show the reader where I said that.
It was in the opening post, which you quoted to me back in post 299.

Do you agree with that? If yes, then my question stands. If you DISagree, then why do you argue against free will?

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #305

Post by William »

[Replying to Kylie in post #304]
It was in the opening post, which you quoted to me back in post 299.
I quoted from the OP re subject matter.
Do you agree with that?
No.
If you DISagree, then why do you argue against free will?
As my first post in this thread indicates, freedom is relative. I do not argue that one has will - only that ones will is subject to the conditions of ones circumstance, and it has not been explained to me why the word 'free' even needs to be used.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #306

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:03 am [Replying to Kylie in post #304]
It was in the opening post, which you quoted to me back in post 299.
I quoted from the OP re subject matter.
Do you agree with that?
No.
If you DISagree, then why do you argue against free will?
As my first post in this thread indicates, freedom is relative. I do not argue that one has will - only that ones will is subject to the conditions of ones circumstance, and it has not been explained to me why the word 'free' even needs to be used.
So your position is that we have "non-free will"? How does that work?

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #307

Post by William »

[Replying to Kylie in post #306]
So your position is that we have "non-free will"?
What makes you think that is my position?

Are you meaning "So your position is that you think we have will"?

If that is what your mean, then yes. I do think we have will.

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #308

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:28 pm [Replying to Kylie in post #306]
So your position is that we have "non-free will"?
What makes you think that is my position?

Are you meaning "So your position is that you think we have will"?

If that is what your mean, then yes. I do think we have will.
You saiod your position is that we have will. But you also said that you don't feel the word "free" applies.

Hence your position is that you do not believe we have FREE WILL. If we have WILL but it is not FREE will, then the only option left is that you believe whatever will we have is non-free. Hence, your position, by a process of elimination, is that we have non-free will.

This is pretty basic logic. Do I need to spell out everything for you?

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #309

Post by William »

[Replying to Kylie in post #308]

So you are meaning "Is your position that you think we have will?" when you asked "Is your position that we have "non-free will"?"

Yes, I do think we have will and I say it that way, because I think it is better than the way you put it.
Why specifically did you put it that way, do you know?
"Non-free will" sounds like we have will but are not free to use it. That is not what I am saying since I think that our will is subject to circumstance. We cannot use our personal will to defy gravity is one example. No matter how we might will that to happen, physics defines how we can use our will, in that circumstance and so our will is subject to that condition and is not free to defy said condition.

Are we clear?

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Re: Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

Post #310

Post by Kylie »

William wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:49 pm [Replying to Kylie in post #308]

So you are meaning "Is your position that you think we have will?" when you asked "Is your position that we have "non-free will"?"

Yes, I do think we have will and I say it that way, because I think it is better than the way you put it.
Why specifically did you put it that way, do you know?
"Non-free will" sounds like we have will but are not free to use it. That is not what I am saying since I think that our will is subject to circumstance. We cannot use our personal will to defy gravity is one example. No matter how we might will that to happen, physics defines how we can use our will, in that circumstance and so our will is subject to that condition and is not free to defy said condition.

Are we clear?
Stop playing word games.

You have already established that you have will of some description. And you gravity example is absurd, since falling according to gravity is not a matter of will at all. Are you so daft as to think that EVERYTHING that happens to us is a result of will of some kind?

The concept of will can be subdivided into two groups.

Group A is will that is free.

Group B is will that is NOT free.

Do you believe our will is in Group A or Group B?

If you wish to provide a third group please feel free, provided that you clearly define how this third group is different to Groups A and B.

I have been abundantly clear and you seem to be intentionally obtuse. Do I need to draw a diagram? If so, I will use bright colours and small words so you can understand it. If you don't like it, then stop playing immature games like a child and answer the question.

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