The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

[Diogenes]

The proposition for debate is that when one takes the tales of Genesis literally, one becomes intellectually disabled, at least temporarily. Taking Genesis literally requires one to reject biology (which includes evolution) and other sciences in favor of 'magic.' Geology and radiometric dating have to be rejected since the Earth formed only about 6000 years ago, during the same week the Earth was made (in a single day).

Much of the debate in the topic of Science and Religion consists of theists who insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis rejecting basic science. Most of the resulting debates are not worth engaging in.

[dad1]

Your attack on 'science' (what is actually observed carefully) is noted.

Time in the far universe is not observed at all, forget carefully.

Your failure to correctly represent science coincides with your failure to accurately characterize scripture.

I represented it perfectly.

Let's look at the entire passage:

Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.”  And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built.  And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.  Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.”  So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city.

The scripture records that man intended to reach "the heavens" the dwelling of the supposed 'god' of Genesis.

So what? What if there was a level up there near the clouds in that particular area where the sons of god lived, and was called heaven at the time? After all no tower is going into outer space! The actual heaven of heavens where God lives is beyond where the stars are, so obviously the tower was not going there! We know angels or sons of god lived (at least part time) on earth, because they took wives here. Right after that tower of Babel time, the life spans suddenly dropped. (not at the flood time 100 years before) Another difference is that after that time of the tower, we no longer see spirits living with men on earth. (there are demons of course, and visiting angels, but they do not check in at the motel 6 and live here today. It would make no sense to build a big tower to any spiritual level in the sky today, there are none. Back then, it made sense.

"God's" reaction was to prevent them from accomplishing their ridiculous task (as if those ancients could actually build a tower that reached "the heavens."

As explained, yes there likely was a spiritual haven in the sky at that time. These days spirit and flesh are separated. A lot changed after the time of Babel, such as life spans dropped by many centuries. Spirits no longer were part of the normal visible world of man. Another change that happened probably at that time is that trees no longer could grow in weeks! I also place that time as when nature changed. That is probably why radioactive dating is worthless for that time and before. Another change that this big event from God at the time of Babel likely saw was that mankind (and most mammals) no longer quickly returned to dust! After this we decayed a lot slower, and left bones and fossils and etc after death. That is possibly why the fossil record has no men and most animals before that time!

Taking this literally the god of the clouds was threatened, according to the text, and stopped them. Why would a true 'god' be threatened?

No not in any way was the Almighty threatened!

Why would 'man' be threatened by a great work of men?

There is nothing great about pride and rebellion against God. Such sins had to be dealt with (later also in Sodom and Gomorrah) so that mankind would not be too evil too fat. The messiah still had to come, and His salvation be made available to all who would accept Jesus. The world will again be like that in the end. Like before the flood, like the days of Sodom. That will be when He stops it all, and takes over the world to rule with His people.

[Diagoras]

Much of the debate in the topic of Science and Religion consists of theists who insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis rejecting basic science. Most of the resulting debates are not worth engaging in.

Well, we’ve just had one example that’s uncannily accurate… how did you predict the preceding post to this one?

[The Barbarian]

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

So there were giants. Later, angels came and had babies with women. That does not say that before those angels did their thing, that the giants were men.

The Bible refers to very large men as giants. Nothing about big reptiles being giants. That's just your addition to His word.

Could there have been dinosaurs that were referred to as giants?

Scripture gives us no reason to think so.

A number of giants, such as Goliath, and his brother Ishbi-Benob are identified by name in scripture.

That was much later, and so what?

Does God's truth change with time? What evidence do you have to support such a notion?

Yes there were giant humans as well as short ones.
In Genesis in the verses you cited it does not say they were human.

The Bible repeatedly identifies giants as very large humans. It never refers to giants as anything else.

[The Barbarian]

The problem for dad is that he's unable to accept the fact that God often speaks in parables and allegories. So he misses the point of the story; it's not about where heaven is located or that God really fears that humans might become able to do all things; it's a parable of the sort of human hubris and ambition that often leads to disaster.

Linguistics has since shown that languages evolve from older ones, as has been historically documented in the past. Again, dad's hubris prevents him from getting the message God is giving us.

[The Barbarian]

The tower did not threaten God, It threatened man.

Well, that's a testable revision of God's word...

Genesis 11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

God expresses concern that if they build the tower, they will be able to do whatever they imagine to do. I think it works better God's way than your way.

That in no way means if they wanted to kill God that they could.

Perhaps you missed what God said, yet again. Maybe you should just take it as it's written, without adding to it. You miss His point, because you can't get a parable.

Jesus mentioned this:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it" (Matthew 13:10-17).

[dad1]

The Bible refers to very large men as giants. Nothing about big reptiles being giants. That's just your addition to His word.

It did not do this in Genesis in the verses cited. Yes there were giants such as Goliath. However, how can we rule out that the giants in the land referred to in Genesis were dinosaurs?

Scripture gives us no reason to think so.

Or not. Since He created it all at the same time, there were dinos living at the same time man lived. (even if most dinosaurs rapidly evolved from original other created kinds such as birds) So there is every reason to think giant creatures were in the land.

A number of giants, such as Goliath, and his brother Ishbi-Benob are identified by name in scripture.

Yes, of course there were giant people also.

The truth is God created man and the universe. The truth is that there were giant men (as there still are, even if they are not quite as big) There is no truth of God that the giants in the land could not have been dinosaurs in Gen. Read it and see.

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


If those were the same giants as Goliath why would it say in those days? Now if it was talking about dinosaurs, that would make sense. The angels were not giants or the daughters of men. The giants were mentioned before that. Then we see, 'also' AFTER that, some stuff happened with woman and angels.

The Bible repeatedly identifies giants as very large humans. It never refers to giants as anything else.

There was no mention that the giants in Gen 6 were men. None.

[dad1]

Well, that's a testable revision of God's word...

Genesis 11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

That has absolutely nothing to do with threatening God. That is ridiculous, and your accusation is false.

God expresses concern that if they build the tower, they will be able to do whatever they imagine to do.

On earth. That does not mean they will fly out of the universe to somehow threaten the Almighty, that is ridiculous. The pride and rebellion of man meant that God needed to step in. God threatened man, not the other way around!

[brunumb]

The Bible refers to very large men as giants. Nothing about big reptiles being giants. That's just your addition to His word.

It did not do this in Genesis in the verses cited. Yes there were giants such as Goliath. However, how can we rule out that the giants in the land referred to in Genesis were dinosaurs?

Scripture gives us no reason to think so.

Or not. Since He created it all at the same time, there were dinos living at the same time man lived. (even if most dinosaurs rapidly evolved from original other created kinds such as birds) So there is every reason to think giant creatures were in the land.

A number of giants, such as Goliath, and his brother Ishbi-Benob are identified by name in scripture.

Yes, of course there were giant people also.

The truth is God created man and the universe. The truth is that there were giant men (as there still are, even if they are not quite as big) There is no truth of God that the giants in the land could not have been dinosaurs in Gen. Read it and see.

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


If those were the same giants as Goliath why would it say in those days? Now if it was talking about dinosaurs, that would make sense. The angels were not giants or the daughters of men. The giants were mentioned before that. Then we see, 'also' AFTER that, some stuff happened with woman and angels.

The Bible repeatedly identifies giants as very large humans. It never refers to giants as anything else.

There was no mention that the giants in Gen 6 were men. None.

[The Barbarian]

On earth. That does not mean they will fly out of the universe to somehow threaten the Almighty, that is ridiculous. The pride and rebellion of man meant that God needed to step in. God threatened man, not the other way around!

You still don't get it. The story is an allegory of man's pride and presumption, warning that it always comes to a bad end. It's not about where Heaven is, or what God might be afraid of. You're focusing on the wrong things.

[Diogenes]

As for "giants" in Genesis, sadly too many 'Bible advocates' understand the Bible just as poorly as they understand science.
The Nephilim ( נְפִילִים ) are mysterious beings in the Hebrew Bible who are large and strong. The word is loosely translated as 'giants' in some translations of the Hebrew Bible, but left untranslated in others. Jewish explanations interpret them as hybrid sons of fallen angels. 'Giants' is, obviously, a less fantastic approach than hybrids of angels and humans.

The main reference to Nephilim (or giants) is in Genesis 6:1–4, but the passage is ambiguous and the identity of the Nephilim is disputed.* According to Numbers 13:33, they later inhabited Canaan at the time of the Israelite conquest of Canaan.

A similar biblical Hebrew term, read as "Nephilim" by some scholars, or as the word "fallen" by others, appears in Ezekiel 32:27 and is also mentioned in Judith 16:6, Sirach 16:7, Baruch 3:26-28 and Wisdom 14:6.

It is impossible to avoid references to the fantastic in the Hebrew Bible and Genesis in particular. The Quran also references giants or superhuman beings as well as other fantastic creatures. These religious references simply reflect the culture of the time and place they were written in.

_________________________
* "Nephilim," Encyclopedia Britannica.
and
Doedens, J. J. T. (2019). The Sons of God in Genesis 6:1–4: Analysis and History of Exegesis.

See also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim