Jesus gave the keys of heaven to Satan?

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AquinasForGod
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Jesus gave the keys of heaven to Satan?

Post #1

Post by AquinasForGod »

I thought this could be a cool topic.

Question for debate: Why did Jesus give the keys to the kingdom to Peter whom he called Satan?

Also, the same Peter rejected Christ 3 times.

Matt 16: 23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance[a] to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

Peter denies Jesus - Luke 22:54-62

Matt 16: 19 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[d] in heaven.”

I think the anti-theist will want to point out that in the gospel God gives Peter the keys, then God calls him Satan shortly after.

Whoa, is this not totally far out and bizarre? Maybe we should just become atheists.


Before I do that, though, I want to consider something. God knows us as we are in all time. He doesn't just know who we are now but who we will be, so God knew who Peter would be. He knew once Peter witnessed the resurrection that it would change him. He would go from someone who denied Jesus out of fear of death to someone that is so convinced Jesus is God that he would risk his life preaching the resurrection.

That is such a huge change, right? What would cause such a big change in Peter? He went from a man that even though he witnessed the transfiguration of Jesus on the mountain, when it came time for Jesus to die and Peter's life was at risk somewhere around Matt 26, he denies Jesus.

He witnessed the transfiguration and still denies Jesus. He witnessed Jesus walking on water and then helped Peter stand on water and he still denied Jesus in order to save his own life.

BUT, once Peter witnessed the resurrected Jesus, he knew this is God for sure. It completely changed him. He was now willing to risk his life for the gospel.

Peter must have been completely convinced that Jesus resurrected. This event was so powerful it was greater than calming the storm, walking on water, or transfiguring. The resurrection of Jesus blew Peter's mind in a way nothing else did.

It makes one wonder if Jesus really resurrected. What else would account for this huge change in Peter?

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Re: Jesus gave the keys of heaven to Satan?

Post #41

Post by AquinasForGod »

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #40]
Well, yeah...epistemology. I could define it myself, but I'll nip out and try to find an expert....

"In his extensive essay on test validity, Messick (1989) defined validity as “an integrated evaluative judgement of the degree to which empirical evidence and theoretical rationales support the adequacy and appropriateness of inferences and actions based on test scores and other modes of assessment” "
Well that is weird. So I asked you what you mean by "valid evidence" and you quote Messick on the validity of psychological assessment. Is that the concept of valid evidence physics uses?
Clear as mud. What is clear, however, is that it isn't dismissing such arguments with invented excuses, 'nobody can be sure of anything' and 'Well I believe it anyway'. I am sure you won't resort to those, or the like.
I agree, it is clear as mud, which is why I am wondering why you quoted it at all.
I have already done so.Since only Matthew has that rather important remark, (added to the 'get behind me' remark which Mark also has), it is arguable (not least because of even more glaring examples of omission or addition) that this is an addition by Matthew, and not something that Jesus actually said.
That might work for those that do not believe, in which case there is no problem, right? So if Jesus never gave Peter the keys, then there is no issue to address. However, Christians believe Jesus did say these words to Peter. In other words, you are not posing any problem to Jesus calling Peter Satan then giving him the keys to heaven. You are just saying, you don't think Jesus said it. But that is not an issue for Christians. Christians believe he said it, thus there needs to be some explanation for why, which I gave and which you have said nothing to challenge.

The church maintains that Peter was given the keys for many reasons. Here are some.

Whenever the apostles are named, Peter is named first. (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13)
Or we get something like, Peter and those with him.

Luke 9:32 Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him.

Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69)

Mark 8: 29 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” 30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.

John 1:42 Jesus gives Simon the name Rock.

Jesus appears to Peter three times to ask him if he loves him. Peter affirms it to show his repentance from when he died Jesus three times. (John 21:15-17) And each time he said to Peter, feed my sheep. Peter is the shepherd.

Jesus warns Peter that Satan will try to sift him, but he says when you have prevailed, then strengthen your brothers - (Luke 22:31-32)

In Acts 9:36-43 we see that Peter acts like Christ on earth when he raises a woman from the dead. She had been dead a while.

Acts 1: 14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.[a]

15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said, 16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled

Again Peter speaks for the disciples

Act 2: 14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

When they were arrested by the Saducees, it was Peter that spoke for them because he was the boss. Act chapter 4.

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Re: Jesus gave the keys of heaven to Satan?

Post #42

Post by TRANSPONDER »

AquinasForGod wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:55 pm [Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #40]
Well, yeah...epistemology. I could define it myself, but I'll nip out and try to find an expert....

"In his extensive essay on test validity, Messick (1989) defined validity as “an integrated evaluative judgement of the degree to which empirical evidence and theoretical rationales support the adequacy and appropriateness of inferences and actions based on test scores and other modes of assessment” "
Well that is weird. So I asked you what you mean by "valid evidence" and you quote Messick on the validity of psychological assessment. Is that the concept of valid evidence physics uses?
Clear as mud. What is clear, however, is that it isn't dismissing such arguments with invented excuses, 'nobody can be sure of anything' and 'Well I believe it anyway'. I am sure you won't resort to those, or the like.
I agree, it is clear as mud, which is why I am wondering why you quoted it at all.
I have already done so.Since only Matthew has that rather important remark, (added to the 'get behind me' remark which Mark also has), it is arguable (not least because of even more glaring examples of omission or addition) that this is an addition by Matthew, and not something that Jesus actually said.
That might work for those that do not believe, in which case there is no problem, right? So if Jesus never gave Peter the keys, then there is no issue to address. However, Christians believe Jesus did say these words to Peter. In other words, you are not posing any problem to Jesus calling Peter Satan then giving him the keys to heaven. You are just saying, you don't think Jesus said it. But that is not an issue for Christians. Christians believe he said it, thus there needs to be some explanation for why, which I gave and which you have said nothing to challenge.

The church maintains that Peter was given the keys for many reasons. Here are some.

Whenever the apostles are named, Peter is named first. (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13)
Or we get something like, Peter and those with him.

Luke 9:32 Now Peter and those who were with him were heavy with sleep, but when they became fully awake they saw his glory and the two men who stood with him.

Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69)

Mark 8: 29 And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.” 30 And he strictly charged them to tell no one about him.

John 1:42 Jesus gives Simon the name Rock.

Jesus appears to Peter three times to ask him if he loves him. Peter affirms it to show his repentance from when he died Jesus three times. (John 21:15-17) And each time he said to Peter, feed my sheep. Peter is the shepherd.

Jesus warns Peter that Satan will try to sift him, but he says when you have prevailed, then strengthen your brothers - (Luke 22:31-32)

In Acts 9:36-43 we see that Peter acts like Christ on earth when he raises a woman from the dead. She had been dead a while.

Acts 1: 14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.[a]

15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said, 16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled

Again Peter speaks for the disciples

Act 2: 14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

When they were arrested by the Saducees, it was Peter that spoke for them because he was the boss. Act chapter 4.
I took the first definition of 'evidence' that popped up.Obviously the term is used in various ways, criminal, scientific or whatever. Or what I said,data, and the logical interpretation of data. What other definition do you use?

I see no good reason for you to leap from Peter being a sort of Ananda - figure in the Gospels (which I don't consider reliable, anyway) in being on one hand the spokesperson and stooge for Jesus' pronouncements, including saying dumb things so as to cue Jesus to shout at them, to that single line in Matthew which I argue is the evidence that it was Matthew's own addition and Jesus never said it.

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