If God is good, why is there evil, suffering and death?

DaveD49 · Post by **DaveD49** » Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:46 pm

EDIT:SORRY, BUT I CREATED CONFUSION WITH THE QUESTION BY THE TITLE I GAVE THE POST. THE ACTUAL QUESTION IS WHERE IT SAYS "SUBJECT FOR DEBATE" BUT IF YOU HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE VIEW FEEL FREE TO POST IT, BUT I AM LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK ON THE ANSWER I GAVE. IF YOU CAN POINT TO SOMETHING WHERE I AM WRONG OR SOMETHING I MAY HAVE MISSED.

This question has been often brought up by atheists and rightfully so. It has also been extremely difficult for theists to answer who stumble over explanations. I am not trying to say that "I have THE answer", but I think I might claim that I have a possible answer.

SUBJECT FOR DEBATE: DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE FOLLOWING AS A POSSIBLE ANSWER FOR THE QUESTION OF IF A GOOD GOD EXISTS WHY IS THERE EVIL, PAIN, SUFFERING, AND DEATH IN THE WORLD?
Please state whether you agree or disagree.
Please explain why you feel that way.

I most certainly do believe as John says in his letter that "God is love. He who abides in love abides in God and God in him." (1John 4:16)

Love by its very nature must be shared, hence this may be the reason why God created us as living souls. Love is best when it is returned, so yes, He wants us to love Him in return. However love cannot be "forced" to love and have it remain love. By its very nature love has to be freely given. So it would be impossible for God to create us "already loving". Certainly He could do that but that would never be true love. Love MUST be freely given. But it would be impossible to do that while we were still in the presence of God. Certainly we could have devotion and awe, but that is not love. In my mind I believe that this is the state of the angels who have not gone through the process of learning how to love.

So, how do we learn to love? First of we had to be given the complete freedom to do any and all evil even though that leads away from God and love, because it is only when we are free to do evil that we are also free to reject that evil and do the good that leads towards God and love. You cannot have "good" without the possibility of "evil". This could not be in the direct presence of God as direct knowledge of Him would skew our free choices. Hence the reason for the creation of the physical realm and why we are only given "hints" of His existence.

Secondly we had to be given pain, suffering, toil and death. These were the "punishments" in the Bible which were given to Adam and Eve for their eating from "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil". In other words we were given a conscience. In my mind this is the most important point of the Adam and Eve story be cause it essentially describes man becoming fully human when He was given a conscience. We no longer lived by instinct as other animal do; instead we are given the insatiable desire to seek the greater good (or the greater evil). This is what has led us from trees to the ground, from the ground to caves, to huts, to houses, to skyscrapers, and also led us from stones to spears, to arrows, to guns, and to thermonuclear weapons. Every decision we make is based on the conscience.... which way would it be better to turn? Right or left? We are asking ourselves which way would be the "better good". So the existence of evil plays an extremely important part of human development.

What about pain, suffering, toil and death? When you think about it you will realize that is only through our personal experience of these, and how they hurt, either in ourselves of a member of our social circle, that we can learn compassion and sympathy for someone else experiencing the same thing. This starts only within our own social circle. But compassion and sympathy teach us to care about even those outside of our social circle. And it is caring about the stranger that leads us to true selfless love.

This whole thing came to my mind when I realized that the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" meant man being given a conscience. Everything else followed after that. I used to dismiss the A&E story as a simple story of creation, but now I see it as one of the most profound in all human literature because with thought it gives the reason for our existence, the reason for evil, the reason for pain, suffering and death, and what our goal should be in this physical realm: to learn true selfless love.

TRANSPONDER · Post by **TRANSPONDER** » Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:34 pm

[Replying to Miles in post #9]

I think you indicated an important issue here - 'Love' is a blunderbuss term. It covers a number of things ...or rather it doesn't; not when it is considered an evolved instinct of preference. These preferences assist (or so the theory goes) with individual, group and species survival. That covers everything, love of persons, love of things, love of social group. And you may consider whether love of a god (whichever) is love of a thing, a person or indeed a social group, with an Icon (which could equally be a flag, standard or a Tabernacle) at the head.

Like morality, DNA -based instinct clarifies this mysterious sense or impulse, and the distorting complexity brought on by organised society doesn't in fact make it any the less mysterious in the end. Nor indeed does it make it any the less valid, meaningful and important to us .

wannabe · Post by **wannabe** » Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:52 pm

DaveD49 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:46 pm EDIT:SORRY, BUT I CREATED CONFUSION WITH THE QUESTION BY THE TITLE I GAVE THE POST. THE ACTUAL QUESTION IS WHERE IT SAYS "SUBJECT FOR DEBATE" BUT IF YOU HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE VIEW FEEL FREE TO POST IT, BUT I AM LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK ON THE ANSWER I GAVE. IF YOU CAN POINT TO SOMETHING WHERE I AM WRONG OR SOMETHING I MAY HAVE MISSED.

This question has been often brought up by atheists and rightfully so. It has also been extremely difficult for theists to answer who stumble over explanations. I am not trying to say that "I have THE answer", but I think I might claim that I have a possible answer.

SUBJECT FOR DEBATE: DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE FOLLOWING AS A POSSIBLE ANSWER FOR THE QUESTION OF IF A GOOD GOD EXISTS WHY IS THERE EVIL, PAIN, SUFFERING, AND DEATH IN THE WORLD?
Please state whether you agree or disagree.
Please explain why you feel that way.

I have my own ideas about how evil works.
Maybe they don't conflict with yours.

Everyone needs their own personal perspective of evil to be allowed to exist independently of each other.
It sets a barrier of acceptance around us, so that we might be forever opinionated, a mechanism to prompt intelligent thought.
Evil has its purpose, to be cast off as a throw away learning tool.
For it is simply the extreme of that which we do not like.

The earths' involvement in Gods' project is thus:
To act as an extraction point for syphoning off good souls to populate his heaven.
And by bringing them through Jesus he is insured of only good ones.
However all souls have potential.

So if God isn't good , how would you separate good from evil?
Sounds like a plan.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:06 am

DaveD49 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:42 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:27 pm Re: If God is good, why is there evil, suffering and death?

BIBLICAL ANSWER: To settle the universal issue of sovereinty; meaning, to allow humanity to see whether humans are better off ruling themselves independent of God or if its better to have God to rule.

LESSON 8 :Why Does God Allow Evil and Suffering?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/goo ... suffering/

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SATAN , HUMAN SUFFERING and .... THE ISSUE OF UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGNTY

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
The actual question was whether or not you agree with the answer which I gave. But I certainly do not see it as a question of if man was ready to rule himself. God gave us intelligence. He knew that may would attempt to rule themselves.

No I dont agree with the answer you gave. My answer is what the bible teaches, you are of course free to disagree with scripture.

JW

DaveD49 · Post by **DaveD49** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:20 pm

Miles wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:23 pm
DaveD49 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:46 pm [/i][/b]This question has been often brought up by atheists and rightfully so. It has also been extremely difficult for theists to answer who stumble over explanations. I am not trying to say that "I have THE answer", but I think I might claim that I have a possible answer.

SUBJECT FOR DEBATE: DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE FOLLOWING AS A POSSIBLE ANSWER FOR THE QUESTION OF IF A GOOD GOD EXISTS WHY IS THERE EVIL, PAIN, SUFFERING, AND DEATH IN THE WORLD?
Please state whether you agree or disagree.
Please explain why you feel that way.

I most certainly do believe as John says in his letter that "God is love. He who abides in love abides in God and God in him." (1John 4:16)

Love by its very nature must be shared,

Miles: Aside from you, who says so? And even if others do agree with you, why is it necessarily a "must"?
Who believes that God is love? Only more than 6 billion theists of different religions. Certainly all of us could have been deceived, but a God who did not love would not be worthy of worship, would He? The other part of your "reply" just underlines your lack of understanding of love. Yes, you can have unrequited love... the love of another which is not returned. But to love there must be the other person who is the loved one.

D: Love is best when it is returned . . . .

M: So best love is a conditional love. Interesting. Sounds rather self-serving if you ask me, and even if you don't ask me.
Not what I said at all. You like to twist things to fit your own agenda, don't you? God loves all whether or not they love Him in return. There are no conditions. I said that love is best when it is returned. I am sorry if you do not understand that.

D: However love cannot be "forced" to love and have it remain love.

M: "Love cannot be "forced" to love"?? So now love is an acting agent of some kind as well as an intense feeling of deep affection. How very curious.
If you feel that love is only an "intense feeling of deep affection" then you are missing the boat. True selfless love goes far beyond that. It could even be the love of a complete stranger without any sort of "deep affection". It could even be love of someone who might be called your enemy.

D: By its very nature love has to be freely given.
[uote] M:Because you say so, I take it, or do you have an actual explanation of this "nature"?[/quote]

I am really sorry that you do not understand what real love is about.

So it would be impossible for God to create us "already loving".

And here I always thought that with god all things are possible. I must have read a whole different Bible. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Nope, all 59 Bibles say the same thing (Matthew 19:26 and Mark 10:27)

Since the 3rd Century "omnipotence" when it comes to God has been defined as that God has the ability to do anything that is not contradictory and not against His nature. So sorry, you are wrong.

D: Certainly He could do that but that would never be true love.

M:Then why bring it up? [/quote}

[color]#804000]Because some people do not understand what love is all about.[/color]

D: Love MUST be freely given.

M: Now, are you talking about "already loving" love or "true love" love?
Apparently you cannot tell the difference between the two.

D: But it would be impossible to do that while we were still in the presence of God.

M: Why? Why couldn't you freely give love in god's presence? Sitting across from him at the breakfast table why couldn't you freely give him your love?
Explained in the question. Awe and devotion are often confused for love, but they are not love. In the presence of God, with first learning to love, all there could be would be awe and devotion.

D: In my mind I believe that this is the state of the angels who have not gone through the process of learning how to love.

Why? Why would this rather odd state come to mind?
This was a sidebar and not pertinent to the question which I was asking.

So, how do we learn to love?

"Learn" like in educated. "Please turn to page 17"? I don't know about you or anyone else, but I don't ever recall "learning" to love." All I remember love as is an involuntary expression of deep affection.

............... Love: No Learning Required.
Once again, you are talking about a different type of love than I am. Jesus explained it clearly in Luke 6:32-36: "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Gotta stop now. I have some business to take care of, but I'll be back to finish a look at your take on love and hopefully get to the part on Evil.

.

DaveD49 · Post by **DaveD49** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:03 pm

wannabe wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:52 pm
DaveD49 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:46 pm EDIT:SORRY, BUT I CREATED CONFUSION WITH THE QUESTION BY THE TITLE I GAVE THE POST. THE ACTUAL QUESTION IS WHERE IT SAYS "SUBJECT FOR DEBATE" BUT IF YOU HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE VIEW FEEL FREE TO POST IT, BUT I AM LOOKING FOR FEEDBACK ON THE ANSWER I GAVE. IF YOU CAN POINT TO SOMETHING WHERE I AM WRONG OR SOMETHING I MAY HAVE MISSED.

This question has been often brought up by atheists and rightfully so. It has also been extremely difficult for theists to answer who stumble over explanations. I am not trying to say that "I have THE answer", but I think I might claim that I have a possible answer.

SUBJECT FOR DEBATE: DO YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH THE FOLLOWING AS A POSSIBLE ANSWER FOR THE QUESTION OF IF A GOOD GOD EXISTS WHY IS THERE EVIL, PAIN, SUFFERING, AND DEATH IN THE WORLD?
Please state whether you agree or disagree.
Please explain why you feel that way.

I have my own ideas about how evil works.
Maybe they don't conflict with yours.

Everyone needs their own personal perspective of evil to be allowed to exist independently of each other.
It sets a barrier of acceptance around us, so that we might be forever opinionated, a mechanism to prompt intelligent thought.
Evil has its purpose, to be cast off as a throw away learning tool.
For it is simply the extreme of that which we do not like.

The earths' involvement in Gods' project is thus:
To act as an extraction point for syphoning off good souls to populate his heaven.
And by bringing them through Jesus he is insured of only good ones.
However all souls have potential.

So if God isn't good , how would you separate good from evil?
Sounds like a plan.
I can see that, but I disagree that everyone needs their own perspective on evil. I can understand that some people do have their own perspective in as far what is evil and what is not; some do not have any qualms of conscience by killing someone else. But just as truth is truth whether we recognize it or not, so to with evil. I do believe that there will be a final judgement based on how God defines evil rather than man.

DaveD49 · Post by **DaveD49** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:08 pm

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #13]

JW: "No I dont agree with the answer you gave. My answer is what the bible teaches, you are of course free to disagree with scripture."

Thank you for your response.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:23 pm

DaveD49 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:46 pm It has also been extremely difficult for theists to answer who stumble over explanations.

Theists usually stumble over explanations because they do not imho rely on scripture to find the answers to these fundamental questions. Even when they do try to because they fail to understand the basic issue (that of universal sovereinty ) they can only partiallyaddress why an omnipotent God allows challenges to his rulership.

DaveD49 · Post by **DaveD49** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:54 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:23 pm
DaveD49 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:46 pm It has also been extremely difficult for theists to answer who stumble over explanations.
Theists usually stumble over explanations because they do not imho rely on scripture to find the answers to these fundamental questions. Even when they do try to because they fail to understand the basic issue (that of universal sovereinty ) they can only partiallyaddress why an omnipotent God allows challenges to his rulership.

An appeal to Scripture is not going to convince anyone of the existence of God or the supernatural. If they do not accept the belief in God or Jesus as His Son, they most certainly will not accept what is written in the Bible. They have to accept the belief in God first. So appealing to the Bible or Jesus before they accept the idea of God is a waste of time. You have to point to things which are a part of logic, science or nature that provide evidence for God to make your case.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:55 pm

DaveD49 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:54 pm
Theists usually stumble over explanations because they do not imho rely on scripture to find the answers to these fundamental questions. Even when they do try to because they fail to understand the basic issue (that of universal sovereinty ) they can only partiallyaddress why an omnipotent God allows challenges to his rulership.
An appeal to Scripture is not going to convince anyone of the existence of God or the supernatural.

Why are you posting this to me? Did I suggest that was why I referred to scripture in my post? What exactly in my post suggested to you that I was attempting {quote} "to convince [anyone] of the existence of God or the supernatural"? What is the relevance of your comment?

JW

DaveD49 · Post by **DaveD49** » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:11 am

JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:55 pm
DaveD49 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:54 pm
Theists usually stumble over explanations because they do not imho rely on scripture to find the answers to these fundamental questions. Even when they do try to because they fail to understand the basic issue (that of universal sovereinty ) they can only partiallyaddress why an omnipotent God allows challenges to his rulership.
An appeal to Scripture is not going to convince anyone of the existence of God or the supernatural.
Why are you posting this to me? Did I suggest that was why I referred to scripture in my post? What exactly in my post suggested to you that I was attempting {quote} "to convince [anyone] of the existence of God or the supernatural"? What is the relevance of your comment?

JW

You said that "Theists usually stumble over explanations because they do not imho rely on scripture to find the answers to these fundamental questions." As I said my opinion is that for a person to believe in Scripture they would first have accept the notion of God. If they do not accept the notion of God why should they believe anything that Scripture says? So any discussion on the existence of God cannot be scripturally based. For it to ever remotely "get through" it has to be built in logic, science, mathematics and nature. Scripture may enter into it from the point of view of fulfilled prophesies, but if a person truly does not believe in God citing Scripture to them is not going to change their minds.