When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.
On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.
Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?
--
Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Scholar
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:49 pm
- Location: Seattle
- Been thanked: 6 times
Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #1"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
- Diagoras
- Guru
- Posts: 1392
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
- Has thanked: 170 times
- Been thanked: 579 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #561If I’m following your argument correctly, then angels and demons are labels for things that are happening inside people’s brains? Is that it?
I would agree.
- Jose Fly
- Guru
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
- Location: Out west somewhere
- Has thanked: 337 times
- Been thanked: 906 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #562FYI, quoting a statement is not the same as making the statement.
Because, being supernatural, they can do anything, including interacting in ways that are impossible to detect.Well "if indeed they exist" why do you think that they are not able to interact, and from that interaction, data produced, and from that data produced, able to be studied?
You have not given a reason...or if you did, I have missed it...
So the labels "demons and angels" are neither accurate nor necessary. Just say "voices".Agreed. The idea of 'demons and angels' stems from putting costumes on the voices which are either 'nice' or 'nasty'.
We can understand that part. What hasn't been explained is why the voices are nasty, nice, helpful, hindrance et al...except re the examples given, through experiences had.
You're taking the analogy far too literally. It's simply a means to illustrate the distinction between studying "angels and demons" and studying "voices" that some believe are angels and demons.The analogy you are using is crude. It implies that a hoax is being performed by the brains of Joey, Eleanor and Carl, and that the voices are not real, and cannot be healthily interacted with.
"It is a hoax" may be how Joeys sees his experiences, but most obviously Eleanor does not, and nor does Carl, in his study of the phenomena.
Therefore we cannot simply conclude anything like a "hoax" has taken/is taking place. The "footprints" [voices] could be aspects of the overall psyche of which the primary consciousness of the individual is largely unaware of, as per what Eleanor and Carl have to say about this phenomena, rather than some agency wearing bigfoot slip-on's and stomping around in the fields of a personalities mind set.
No, because there's no need to use the terms "angels and demons".Therefore we can leave that on the table - whatever these voices are and whyever they present to the individual as they do, is a natural thing and both Eleanor and Carl explain it in that light.
Whatever 'angels and demons' really are, they are natural.
Agreed?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
- Clownboat
- Savant
- Posts: 9381
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
- Has thanked: 906 times
- Been thanked: 1261 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #563It's a war with words going on. The terms angels and demons are being used, but what is meant is not angels nor demons but something else. In this case, the accurate word 'voices' is being used to mean angels and demons. Why the deception is what I don't understand. Why not say what is meant?
In another thread, to create something is just to give it a name. Such deception I say.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
- Jose Fly
- Guru
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
- Location: Out west somewhere
- Has thanked: 337 times
- Been thanked: 906 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #564Bingo!Clownboat wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:51 pmIt's a war with words going on. The terms angels and demons are being used, but what is meant is not angels nor demons but something else. In this case, the accurate word 'voices' is being used to mean angels and demons. Why the deception is what I don't understand. Why not say what is meant?
In another thread, to create something is just to give it a name. Such deception I say.
I'd like to comment more on this, but I'm very reluctant to discuss mental health issues in forums with members who have those issues. And given the conflation between "angels and demons" and "thoughts in one's head", it's far too easy for comments about angels and demons to be construed as slights against people suffering from mental health issues.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14187
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 912 times
- Been thanked: 1644 times
- Contact:
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #565[Replying to Jose Fly in post #562]
I think it is similar, depending on why one quotes whatever they quote, which is usually to help make a point they think is relevant to their argument.
Why did you use the quote?
2: If they interact in ways which are impossible to detect, then what are we talking about?
It appears to me that demons and angels are also analogy's for nice or nasty voices, but I might be incorrect and they may actually exist as invisible entities which are as natural as anything else in the universe.
What about "studying voices that manifest as nice or nasty that some personalities claim to hear"?
Whatever 'nice and nasty voices' really are, they are natural.
Agreed?
FYI I never stated that it did.FYI, quoting a statement is not the same as making the statement.
I think it is similar, depending on why one quotes whatever they quote, which is usually to help make a point they think is relevant to their argument.
Why did you use the quote?
Well "if indeed they exist" why do you think that they are not able to interact, and from that interaction, data produced, and from that data produced, able to be studied?
You have not given a reason...or if you did, I have missed it...
1: If they exist, then they must be natural - not supernatural...Because, being supernatural, they can do anything, including interacting in ways that are impossible to detect.
2: If they interact in ways which are impossible to detect, then what are we talking about?
Agreed. The idea of 'demons and angels' stems from putting costumes on the voices which are either 'nice' or 'nasty'.
We can understand that part. What hasn't been explained is why the voices are nasty, nice, helpful, hindrance et al...except re the examples given, through experiences had.
If we are just referring to 'voices' how to we reconcile the different types of voices which people say that they hear?So the labels "demons and angels" are neither accurate nor necessary. Just say "voices".
Why didn't you say that rather than defer to an analogy?You're taking the analogy far too literally. It's simply a means to illustrate the distinction between studying "angels and demons" and studying "voices" that some believe are angels and demons.
It appears to me that demons and angels are also analogy's for nice or nasty voices, but I might be incorrect and they may actually exist as invisible entities which are as natural as anything else in the universe.
What about "studying voices that manifest as nice or nasty that some personalities claim to hear"?
Therefore we can leave that on the table - whatever these voices are and whyever they present to the individual as they do, is a natural thing and both Eleanor and Carl explain it in that light.
Whatever 'angels and demons' really are, they are natural.
Agreed?
Therefore we can leave that on the table - whatever these voices are and whyever they present to the individual as they do, is a natural thing and both Eleanor and Carl explain it in that light.No, because there's no need to use the terms "angels and demons".
Whatever 'nice and nasty voices' really are, they are natural.
Agreed?
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14187
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 912 times
- Been thanked: 1644 times
- Contact:
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #566I don't know whether brains are the source of the voices, or not.
I do know that our bodies senses ordinarily only experience a slim section of the overall spectrum of what exists, so it might be that some brains are picking up signals that are actually there and naturally so - but those signals are ordinarily outside of the sensory perceptions of most humans. [which is why I am using the word 'ordinarily']
This can explain why certain drugs that have been developed can act as buffers to help the brain not pick up signals which ordinarily aren't noticed/experienced. These drugs are not acting as a cure [as some have claimed] but they do allow for individuals to have a more ordinary experience, as long as those individuals continue to take the drugs...
-
- Student
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:34 pm
- Has thanked: 2 times
- Been thanked: 7 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #567Jose Fly wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:23 pmDo you believe the sun orbits the earth?
No, I don't. I believe fundamentalism fueled by inerrancy doctrine is locked into the verse that say it's the sun that rises, sets, and races back around again. The story in Joshua of the sun standing still is the prime proof text
Ken Hamm at Answers in Genesis loves to go on so about inerrant and infallibility with regrds to the genesis creation account, but meh, science proved scripture wrong regarding the passages the earth and flat and egocentricity
Google is your friend, christian man, but don't ask ?'s you don't want thto answer to
- Jose Fly
- Guru
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
- Location: Out west somewhere
- Has thanked: 337 times
- Been thanked: 906 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #568IIRC, to reply to it.
Not according to the people who believe in them.1: If they exist, then they must be natural - not supernatural...
That's precisely the point.2: If they interact in ways which are impossible to detect, then what are we talking about?
That's not something I'm qualified to speak to.If we are just referring to 'voices' how to we reconcile the different types of voices which people say that they hear?
I did, right before I made the analogy.Why didn't you say that rather than defer to an analogy?
My understanding is that researchers have been doing that for some time now.What about "studying voices that manifest as nice or nasty that some personalities claim to hear"?
Sure.Whatever 'nice and nasty voices' really are, they are natural.
Agreed?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
- Jose Fly
- Guru
- Posts: 1462
- Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2022 5:30 pm
- Location: Out west somewhere
- Has thanked: 337 times
- Been thanked: 906 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #569On what basis? Have you watched the earth make a complete orbit around the sun, or reproduced it in a lab?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14187
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 912 times
- Been thanked: 1644 times
- Contact:
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #570[Replying to Jose Fly in post #568]
Neither Carl Jung or Eleanor Longden considered the voices to being supernatural. They do not label the voices 'angels/demons' but clearly they understand the connection has to do with whether the voices are nasty or nice and in that, realize where notions of angels and demons are sourced...in the actual expressions of the voices.
1: If they exist, then they must be natural - not supernatural...
Rather, [more truthfully] "Not according to some of the people who believe in them."Not according to the people who believe in them.
Neither Carl Jung or Eleanor Longden considered the voices to being supernatural. They do not label the voices 'angels/demons' but clearly they understand the connection has to do with whether the voices are nasty or nice and in that, realize where notions of angels and demons are sourced...in the actual expressions of the voices.
2: If they interact in ways which are impossible to detect, then what are we talking about?
No. It is not a 'point' at all. It is precisely a question.That's precisely the point.
If we are just referring to 'voices' how to we reconcile the different types of voices which people say that they hear?
Why not? You appear to be sensible and intelligent. What else qualifies someone to speak to anything which occurs in this universe, such as the hearing of different types of voices?That's not something I'm qualified to speak to.
Whatever 'nice and nasty voices' really are, they are natural.
Agreed?
With that, is there anything else to add which you think might still be able to be used to try and argue against my position on the matter?Sure.