The Debilitating Effect of Taking Genesis Literally

[Diogenes]

The proposition for debate is that when one takes the tales of Genesis literally, one becomes intellectually disabled, at least temporarily. Taking Genesis literally requires one to reject biology (which includes evolution) and other sciences in favor of 'magic.' Geology and radiometric dating have to be rejected since the Earth formed only about 6000 years ago, during the same week the Earth was made (in a single day).

Much of the debate in the topic of Science and Religion consists of theists who insist on a literal interpretation of Genesis rejecting basic science. Most of the resulting debates are not worth engaging in.

[Diogenes]

[Replying to dad1 in post #544]

Prove it. Prove that no window of heaven opened and closed? That is like saying no angel ever visited earth! prove it! You have one option. Admit ignorance, because you have no way to know either way. You cannot speak from a position of knowledge or authority.

Prove that heaven exists, or angels. You can't of course. These are both just made up terms to describe imaginary things. There's no reason to believe that either of them actually exist, and certainly no empirical evidence that they do.

I pointed out that there was water above the firmament (space..where the stars are) That is probably the water that came down in the windows. Not some mystery water hovering over the planet.

Don't you think that "space..where the stars are" is above our planet? Of course, if the "firmament" were interstellar space (the space between the stars), then your argument makes even less sense. Liquid water cannot survive in interstellar space because both pressure and temperature are far below the triple point of water. If there were some store of liquid water in this imaginary "firmament" there's no way it could get to Earth over the distances involved. The whole concept is thermodynamically impossible, but ancient story tellers did not know anything about thermodynamics and were free to make up anything they liked to explain things, as they clearly did. We know now that it is all wrong.

The stars are all IN the firmament. It is that firmament that divided the waters below it and above it. No water needs to be in the firmament where the stars are.

This is just old bible nonsense. There is no "firmament."

The windows were right here. The water they allowed to enter earth by opening was probably from the other side of the firmament. (space-where the stars are) There were also conduits to the inner earth that opened at the same time, also allowing water to come up to the surface.

Probably? Now that's convincing empirical evidence. And conduits to the inner earth opened? This is just more hand-waving and preaching without any evidence whatsoever. Anyone can make up stories when there are no requirements to tie them to reality. This is called fiction. The idea here is to back up claims with some kind of evidence beyond simply quoting bible stories. You've yet to do that even once.

With his "windows in the firmament" and "channels" in the ground for water to come from the inner Earth which is 1300-9000 degrees F, I wonder if 'dad1' also thinks the Earth is flat and the center of the universe. Where and how do these Biblical literalists limit their beliefs in this nonsense? Where do they draw the line between fantasy and reality? And how do they make that determination.

[dad1]

The act of childbirth has many risks, and there have been deaths as a result. If you're here to just deny fact I can't help you.

There are many dangers in this world. We can't stop living worrying about them. The bible does say that if a woman believes in Jesus she will be spared in child birth. So He covered that base.

I never said she was at greater risk, so that's on you.

So you admit the risk is not increased with the half of a percent who were raped. Great. So why kill the child exactly?

Do you deny that some women have died while giving birth?

Some have died crossing the street also. Are you against movement?

If not, who's life do YOU decide to save when the mother's life is at risk?

Would the mother not get a vote? The father? God? Why do you obsess on exceptions and ignore the super majority of cases that have nothing to do with any of that??

[dad1]

[Replying to DrNoGods in post #555]

Awwww. C'mon DrNoGods. If you were an omnipotent deity and wanted to rid the earth of a few pesky humans, wouldn't you just open up a wormhole to transport water across the universe and release the fountains of the deep to drown everyone? Of course a few humans will get to escape this devastation, but they have to build their own structurally sound giant wooden boat using the best technology of the day. Sounds like the perfect plan to me. God sure works in mysterious ways. LOL.

They also will make it possible for the Savior to come one day.

I thought that he was meant to be traveling down on clouds with trumpets blaring. Never mind. One fiction is as good as another.

No. He was to come as the servant first and die. The next time He is near earth, takes believers dead and alive up into the sky and gives them new eternal bodies! The world will not see Him until years later when He returns with those believers and sets foot on the mount of Olives, and takes over the world by force, and rules here.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to brunumb in post #557]

Awwww. C'mon DrNoGods. If you were an omnipotent deity and wanted to rid the earth of a few pesky humans, wouldn't you just open up a wormhole to transport water across the universe and release the fountains of the deep to drown everyone?

That would make a better movie than raining for 40 days and nights (and having imaginary "fountains of the deep" gush forth, although I expect that could be embellished with some decent special effects). But wormholes transporting 3x the volume of the oceans and then some, then sucking it all back to beyond the observable universe would be cooler. God could orchestrate the whole thing looking out from the windows of heaven and waving his hands furiously as all the men, women, children and babies gasp for air before drowning, or get flung against rocks and smashed to death. It would certainly be rated R for violence. Fortunately, none of this actually happened in the real world.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to dad1 in post #558]

Creation and the flood involve God. For the record.

Again, my comments were about heaven and angels. And there has never been a global flood since humans have existed on Earth ... this we know with certainty.

It is not empirical evidence that you offer that the decision was the lions.

But it is certainly a viable option, as opposed to god telling the lion to divert. In reality, the lion would almost certainly eat you first as you'd be a much easier catch than the gazelle if the gazelle wasn't injured.

The bible says there was water above and below that firmament. Your inability to know what is beyond (or what was beyond- since this was thousands of years ago) the observable universe is not my problem.

The bible doesn't count for evidence here, so you need to come up with some other source to confirm that water exists "beyond space", whatever that even means ... you've defined the firmament as space. None of this makes any sense.

Well, let's break this down. If the earth was created and then waters above space were separated from waters on earth below, that seems to mean that the waters were above the firmament. (space) Later the stars were made and put in this space (firmament), So how would that not have meant water was above where the stars are??

It is a old story in a holy book, not anything real. Stars are spread throughout the universe as far as we've been able to see. There's no evidence that they suddenly stop existing at some distance and that there's water (of all things!) beyond that distance.

Bingo. That is my deduction of what the bible is talking about. As a confirmation such things are possible, we have one instance where a man is praying with his eyes closed. An angel from the throne of God (God is also beyond the heavens where the stars are) came to Daniel's room and spoke to him just as he opened his eyes. The distance of the universe was traveled in moments (or less). Time and space are no limit to God or His angels.

Just another fictional bible story. Imaginary creatures (angels) can be given any imaginary powers and abilities that can be imagined ... because they are not real. In ET a boy rode a flying bicycle because the filmmakers bolted it to the front of a camera and moved it up and down in front of a blue screen, and edited it heavily. In the bible an angel came to Daniel's room all the way from heaven and spoke to him, because the writers put that story in the text. Same thing.

No, we do not live that long now. One reason we can also deduce that nature on earth changed! There are many things that go on now that have no relation to what went on, such as possibly...radioactivity.

Nothing goes on now in nature that didn't go on 6000 years ago as far as radioactivity, ages of people (longer now due to medical and food advances), and things like that. It is physioligically impossible for a human, at any time since we evolved from our great ape ancestors, to have lived to 900+ years. It never happened. Again ... old stories from a holy book.

Obviously there are not windows of heaven open now. That has zero relation to when they were opened!

Since heaven most likely doesn't exist, there is no need for these imaginary windows. Modern science has completely debunked the creation story of Genesis, Noah's flood, people living to 900+ years, and other wild stories from the bible (and other holy books). Why anyone still takes these stories literally is very hard to understand.

[JoeyKnothead]

So you admit the risk is not increased with the half of a percent who were raped. Great. So why kill the child exactly?

Nor is the risk decreased.

A fetus is not a child. Your terminology is as antiquated as your thinking.

I don't advocate for killing, but advocate for a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

Do you deny that some women have died while giving birth?

Some have died crossing the street also. Are you against movement?

I'm for a woman's right to decide for herself if she wants to cross the street.

If not, who's life do YOU decide to save when the mother's life is at risk?

Would the mother not get a vote?

Not in some states and locales.

The father?

If he's the one that's pregnant.

God?

I'm unaware of anyone who can show God even exists, much less that they know his opinion.

Why do you obsess on exceptions and ignore the super majority of cases that have nothing to do with any of that??

My position is to stand with a woman's right to control her body. At least unless she gives consent and we've established safe words beforehand.

What's your obsession with trying to make a woman's medical decisions for her?

[dad1]

Again, my comments were about heaven and angels. And there has never been a global flood since humans have existed on Earth ... this we know with certainty.

You know nothing of the sort. You impose present nature based assumptions and beliefs on the far past. You are no more in a position to say there was no flood than to say there was no windows of heaven!

But it is certainly a viable option, as opposed to god telling the lion to divert.

Except either we know or not. Once we see you do not know, nothing else matters.

In reality, the lion would almost certainly eat you first as you'd be a much easier catch than the gazelle if the gazelle wasn't injured.

What anything would 'normally' do does not matter in the least. Having the creator communicate to an animal, changes all normal instincts. One example of this is when the ark of the covenant was stolen by heathen in the bible. Once they saw it was too powerful to keep, they were afraid, and wanted to send it back! They placed the ark on a cart and fixed this to a mother cow. The cow headed directly and immediately straight toward Jerusalem knowing exactly where to go. She also left her calf, crying behind on her great mission for God.

The bible doesn't count for evidence here

Neither does your unsupportable opinion on the matter. Checkmate. You simply cannot comment intelligently or knowledgeably about windows of heaven being opened thousands of years ago. Therefore obviously you cannot ask anyone else for evidence. You must simply admit ignorance.

, so you need to come up with some other source to confirm that water exists "beyond space", whatever that even means

No. I do not. Science cannot comment on what the bible says existed long ago beyond this observable universe! Period.

... you've defined the firmament as space. None of this makes any sense.

Yes it does. There was water according to the bible on the other side of space where the stars are. It was apparently transported (beam me up Scotty sort of thing) via stargate/wormhole type windows here. Simple. Try to show evidence that did not happen!

It is a old story in a holy book, not anything real.

You are in no position to declare the record false. None whatsoever.

Stars are spread throughout the universe as far as we've been able to see.

Big deal, all that means is as far as man is able to see!

There's no evidence that they suddenly stop existing at some distance and that there's water (of all things!) beyond that distance.

Or not. So make no claims on this in the name of science!

Imaginary creatures (angels) can be given any imaginary powers and abilities that can be imagined

You imagining that angels are somehow bound to rules of men is pure imagination. Try to remember this is not a forum for just imagining.

In ET a boy rode a flying bicycle because the filmmakers bolted it to the front of a camera and moved it up and down in front of a blue screen, and edited it heavily. In the bible an angel came to Daniel's room all the way from heaven and spoke to him, because the writers put that story in the text. Same thing.

The bible and God do not depend on camera tricks. Sorry.

Nothing goes on now in nature that didn't go on 6000 years ago as far as radioactivity, ages of people (longer now due to medical and food advances), and things like that.

Except that the way you imagine how long ago anything from that time was is by radioactive dating for the most part! If there was no radioactivity per say, then that won't work at all. Once again your 'dates' are pure belief and inbred circular reasoning.

It is physioligically impossible for a human, at any time since we evolved from our great ape ancestors, to have lived to 900+ years. It never happened. Again ... old stories from a holy book.

Now...yes. Then...it was normal. You simply have no possibility of evidence against that. Your one trick pony is to try to use the present as the key to the different past. Belief based mental gymnastics!

Since heaven most likely doesn't exist, there is no need for these imaginary windows.

The heaven spoken of was not the heaven of heavens. It was the sky over earth where the windows opened and closed again. The sky does exist!

Modern science has completely debunked the creation story of Genesis,

In no way have they done that in even one small way and they never will. Get over it.

[dad1]

A fetus is not a child. Your terminology is as antiquated as your thinking.

You do not get to make the rules! Babies that are unborn are just little people. They used to say a woman was 'great with child' not great with fetus'! You want to call the victims of murder another name so that it seems less evil.

I don't advocate for killing, but advocate for a woman's right to bodily autonomy.

And I advocate that the innocent little people should be protected from murderers.

I'm for a woman's right to decide for herself if she wants to cross the street.

Me too. But if she is carrying a machine gun and had uttered threats against a guy on the other side of that street, I am for the police stopping her.

Not in some states and locales.

Then those locales have no vote in the judgment coming.

If he's the one that's pregnant.

People to not need to be a woman to have rights actually.

I'm unaware of anyone who can show God even exists, much less that they know his opinion.

He told us in Scripture and He Himself while here confirmed that is true. His words are no mystery. No one can show God does not exist. The people who know Him know He exists.

My position is to stand with a woman's right to control her body.

It is the child's body we are talking about. The woman who is pregnant also has a responsibility to care for the other body God sent in to her womb.

At least unless she gives consent ..

Manson may have consented to wiping out some people. That did not give him the right to do so.

What's your obsession with trying to make a woman's medical decisions for her?

Knowing God sends babies, and that anyone that hurts the little people will have to face Him for the crime, I have every right and duty to tell the truth on the issue.

[otseng]

You simply cannot comment intelligently or knowledgeably about windows of heaven being opened thousands of years ago. Therefore obviously you cannot ask anyone else for evidence. You must simply admit ignorance.

Try to remember this is not a forum for just imagining.

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[DrNoGods]

[Replying to dad1 in post #567]

You know nothing of the sort. You impose present nature based assumptions and beliefs on the far past. You are no more in a position to say there was no flood than to say there was no windows of heaven!

We know from geology that it never happened, and we know from our understanding of how much water is available on Earth that no such a flood could have possibly happened since humans existed on this planet. There simply isn't enough water available. And to claim it happened a measly 4500 years ago is even more ridiculous. And yes, we can impose our knowledge of the present, along with observations from past events, to know that 4500 years ago geology was not different. This is just another variation of your silly "fishbowl" argument for time and space far from Earth being somehow different ... a convenient catch-all explanation for everything that doesn't jive with the biblical narrative, but without any basis.

What anything would 'normally' do does not matter in the least. Having the creator communicate to an animal, changes all normal instincts. One example of this is when the ark of the covenant was stolen by heathen in the bible. Once they saw it was too powerful to keep, they were afraid, and wanted to send it back! They placed the ark on a cart and fixed this to a mother cow. The cow headed directly and immediately straight toward Jerusalem knowing exactly where to go. She also left her calf, crying behind on her great mission for God.

Another silly bible story, which carries no weight in this forum section.

You simply cannot comment intelligently or knowledgeably about windows of heaven being opened thousands of years ago. Therefore obviously you cannot ask anyone else for evidence. You must simply admit ignorance.

There's no reason to believe any place such as heaven exists, or that it has "windows." It is an imaginary place.

Yes it does. There was water according to the bible on the other side of space where the stars are. It was apparently transported (beam me up Scotty sort of thing) via stargate/wormhole type windows here. Simple. Try to show evidence that did not happen!

Show evidence that such a nonsensical scenario did not happen? It is just a made up story without any basis in reality whatsoever. It is simple alright, but utter nonsense.

You imagining that angels are somehow bound to rules of men is pure imagination. Try to remember this is not a forum for just imagining.

LOL! And you're offering up wormholes that water travels through from beyond the observable universe, windows to heaven, dinosaurs living alongside humans, angels instantaneously traveling across the universe, and on and on. Please ... this is all pure fiction and imagination.

The heaven spoken of was not the heaven of heavens. It was the sky over earth where the windows opened and closed again.

More nonsense. Now we have the "heaven of heavens"? How many heavens are there? What do you think the sky is? Do you have any idea? Have you ever heard of Rayleigh scattering?