Who would the antichrist fool?

[Athetotheist]

"....and all the world wondered after the beast." (Rev. 13:3)

The antichrist is supposed to fool everyone----except true Christians----into worshipping him.

How well would that work out? Would he be able to fool.....

Jews? Judaism holds that only God is to be worshipped and that God does not take any physical form. Worship of any human being is considered blasphemous idolatry, and any wonders the antichrist performed would be interpreted as the workings of a false teacher sent by God to test the Jewish people.

Muslims? Islam also teaches that God takes no physical form, so they too would instantly peg the antichrist as a phony.

Feminist Pagans would reject any god-claim which didn't acknowledge the Goddess.

Atheists would suspect any miracle of being either a trick or a coincidence. An "image of the beast" brought to life could be taken for an artificial intelligence project.

The god-claim of the antichrist being fundamentally incompatible with so many beliefs, who would be left for the antichrist to fool?

[Clownboat]

Would it be a valid counter for me to claim that my knowledge comes from the god that created your god and is therefore superior knowledge?

If it can be shown to be the case, then yes.

Since my knowledge is not my own, as it comes from the god that created Tam's god, I have shown my claim to be true. Again, this is not my knowledge, but the knowledge of the god that created all other gods.

What do you have to show?

Just how important evidence is and not empty assertions.

[Clownboat]

The problem is with your claim that Christ is wisdom and we learn from him. What we don't have is Christ teaching us.

That is not on Him.

You claim Christ teaches, yet it is not on him that we don't have him teaching us and instead have people such as yourself teaching us about Christ while claiming his knowledge is your own. If Christ is to teach, then it is in fact on him that he isn't. We only have you here, there is no Christ involved that I can tell. You think there is a Christ involved. Until you show such to be the case, some may think you are just another person hearing voices and such.

Some DO have Christ teaching them (because some are listening to Him, His sheep at the least are listening to Him.) Many do not (and bringing this back to the topic), many do not even look to Him to be their teacher but instead look to men, to religion, to religious leaders, etc. And/or many do not believe He even exists (or that He is alive).

This site is not for preaching. If you cannot show that Christ knowledge is your own, please don't make such a claim.

Stop looking to men to teach you and start looking to and listening to Christ, instead.

Copy/paste to save time and sanity: "How can we learn from Christ when we have people claiming to speak on his behalf?

If you trust MY words, you are trusting in Tam. If you take the matter to CHRIST, then listen to HIM... then you are trusting in Christ (and His Father also, since Christ is the Word of God).

I do not trust your words. So I took the matter to Christ and he informed me that you are an imposter being lead astray by the devil. This is not my knowledge, but Christ's. So keep that in mind. Surely you see why empty claims are.... well.... empty!?

I am not the only person in Christ who hears His voice.

Lots of people hear voices. Should I trust a Muslim as you would have me trust you when they claim their knowledge is actually Allah's knowledge? Of course not, but that is what you offer, then you blame the victim.

Sometimes one may share as they have received from Christ.

We don't know this to be true. We do know that humans are often deceived though, therefore I can't just accept your words as factual. Perhaps if you claimed that your knowledge came from a god, maybe that would help? I kid of course as claiming god knowledge could be part of the deception if we are being honest.

Sometimes the spirit within me bears witness to the truth in what they have shared at once

More of the same. Now you have spirit bearing truth!
I acknowledge that you claim to hear voices and have spirits within you. Your words when preached to the choir might have the effect you were hoping for, here they will be taken at face value.

Sometimes I must test what they have shared and take the matter to my Lord (as He has taught me to do).

I wonder what you really mean when you say a Lord taught you?

I understand why YOU see what you see though: a lack of faith or even mere belief in the existence of God and Christ.

You claim god knowledge, spirits being within you, hearing voices and then you proceed to blame the victim. You're not looking inwardly enough as you infact don't seem to understand. Furthermore, as a believe for 2 decades, your words couldn't be more meaningless.

Therefore, to you, what I share can only have come from me (be my personal opinion, interpretation).

Derp! If you share something, did it in fact not come from you? When you share something with me, who is doing the sharing?
What we have so far:
God knowledge.
Voices.
Spirits.
Now when you share with me, I believe it is you sharing with me. Who else is at your PC typing that isn't you? I have to know.

Yup, and until you provide evidence that the voices are real, that gods and spirits interact with you,

But I cannot live my life according to how some other person sees it.

Never asked you to. I asked for evidence for the voices, gods and spirits that interact with you.

Then stop listening to me and go straight to Him. Who's stopping you?

Rember, I did one better. My knowledge comes from the god that created your god, so my godly knowledge has already informed all of us that you are not hearing from Christ, the spirits in you are not friendly and your knowledge is your own and doesn't actually come from a god.

Thank goodness the world does not opperate on claims alone! Right? Right? Right!

I do understand being cautious though. There are many false christs and false prophets and wolves in sheeps' clothing and just plain old liars out there (purposefully or in ignorancee) - speaking lies, misleading people, causing harm. The odd thing is... that is what religion does and instead of focusing on that, some here are now ignoring that entire subject to focus on some lady who bears witness to a living and speaking Christ, who has never told anyone to listen to her, but rather to listen to Christ and follow Him (if indeed one wishes to be HIS disciple).

FYI, I don't listen to you (as if you were an authority, to clarify) and you don't even enter my thoughts outside of debate.

So I should lie or be silent? Stop bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ? (Because I am not going to do either of those things.)

I would prefer that you showed that you speak the truth in place of making claims about having god knowledge or spirits informing you. All while on a debate site no less! Please understand, from the outside, you are informing people that you hear voices and have spirits in you and that you actually believe your knowledge comes from a god. Imagine a person making such claims and crediting another god or aliens. Imagine how you would receive their words. It's just your lack of faith being the issue after all.

It might be worth considering that there is a bit of an irreconcilable difference between a non-believer and the believer on this matter. I can understand that reaction from a non-believer (or even just a non-Christian).

Being a believer or not, we should never inform a schizophrenic for example that the voices and delusions are real. Even if they speak with the gods or whatever it is they believe. How are your claims different then those of a schizophrenic person or someone that claims to be the risen Christ for example? Why is the returned Christ person 'crazy' while you are not? I'm asking sincerely.

I said the exact opposite. You simply do not or cannot accept that.

Quoting Tam: "This is something my Lord has confirmed to me, so that it is NOT my knowledge or wisdom, but rather, His"
Your words are there for all of us to see. Shame on you!

Counter as you like. Your claim would be meaningless because you have offered nothing more than a "believe me because I have superior 'god knowledge'... end of discussion.

Bam! Thread closed! Your help was greatly appreciated!

I have NEVER done that. I did not give credit to Christ so that people would believe me,

Correct, you claimed the knowledge is not your knowledge that you are sharing, as that knowledge you are sharing actually came from a Christ. Your claim certainly did not provide a reason to believe you. The opposite happened in fact.
Again, your words: it is NOT my knowledge or wisdom, but rather, His

[tam]

Peace to you,

The problem is with your claim that Christ is wisdom and we learn from him. What we don't have is Christ teaching us.

That is not on Him.

You claim Christ teaches, yet it is not on him that we don't have him teaching us and instead have people such as yourself teaching us about Christ while claiming his knowledge is your own. If Christ is to teach, then it is in fact on him that he isn't. We only have you here, there is no Christ involved that I can tell. You think there is a Christ involved. Until you show such to be the case, some may think you are just another person hearing voices and such.

Some DO have Christ teaching them (because some are listening to Him, His sheep at the least are listening to Him.) Many do not (and bringing this back to the topic), many do not even look to Him to be their teacher but instead look to men, to religion, to religious leaders, etc. And/or many do not believe He even exists (or that He is alive).

This site is not for preaching. If you cannot show that Christ knowledge is your own, please don't make such a claim.

The two statements above from me are connected (one serves to help explain the other). I do not see where you addressed the point.

Please also note: You made a claim that 'we' do not have Christ teaching 'us'. But you cannot speak for us all (just as I cannot speak for us all). Some us do have Christ teaching us.

Stop looking to men to teach you and start looking to and listening to Christ, instead.

Copy/paste to save time and sanity: "How can we learn from Christ when we have people claiming to speak on his behalf?

Asked and answered.

If you trust MY words, you are trusting in Tam. If you take the matter to CHRIST, then listen to HIM... then you are trusting in Christ (and His Father also, since Christ is the Word of God).

I do not trust your words. So I took the matter to Christ and he informed me that you are an imposter being lead astray by the devil. This is not my knowledge, but Christ's. So keep that in mind. Surely you see why empty claims are.... well.... empty!?

I did not make an empty claim, Clownboat. This thread is not about me. This thread is about 'who would the antichrist fool' (with the suggestion that this so-called anti-christ could not fool anyone). In my response to the actual OP topic, I simply gave credit to the One who taught me. But there is an entire post of content that could be discussed and tested (as per the actual OP topic).

I am not the only person in Christ who hears His voice.

Lots of people hear voices. Should I trust a Muslim as you would have me trust you when they claim their knowledge is actually Allah's knowledge? Of course not, but that is what you offer, then you blame the victim.

A - I have not asked you (or anyone) to trust me.

B - What victim?

C - You are taking my words above out of their context and, therefore, missing the point about WHO to listen to and WHO to trust.

Sometimes the spirit within me bears witness to the truth in what they have shared at once

More of the same. Now you have spirit bearing truth!

This is holy spirit bearing witness to the truth. Not a person, but the anointing that one receives from Christ. If one has received holy spirit from Christ, then one is Christian.

Sometimes I must test what they have shared and take the matter to my Lord (as He has taught me to do).

I wonder what you really mean when you say a Lord taught you?

I created a thread many years ago on this very forum to respond to such wondering, and to help prevent the derailment of thread future threads discussing me (instead of the topic). You may have read it:

viewtopic.php?t=28577

I understand why YOU see what you see though: a lack of faith or even mere belief in the existence of God and Christ.

You claim god knowledge, spirits being within you, hearing voices and then you proceed to blame the victim. You're not looking inwardly enough as you infact don't seem to understand. Furthermore, as a believe for 2 decades, your words couldn't be more meaningless.

Why do you see blame instead of understanding? If my understanding is wrong, feel free to correct, but there is no blame here from me. If you feel blamed, then maybe you should look inward. Perhaps it is baggage leftover from those two decades?

I do understand being cautious though. There are many false christs and false prophets and wolves in sheeps' clothing and just plain old liars out there (purposefully or in ignorancee) - speaking lies, misleading people, causing harm. The odd thing is... that is what religion does and instead of focusing on that, some here are now ignoring that entire subject to focus on some lady who bears witness to a living and speaking Christ, who has never told anyone to listen to her, but rather to listen to Christ and follow Him (if indeed one wishes to be HIS disciple).

FYI, I don't listen to you (as if you were an authority, to clarify) and you don't even enter my thoughts outside of debate.

Thank for the FYI I guess, but my comment was made within the context and confines of this thread.

So I should lie or be silent? Stop bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ? (Because I am not going to do either of those things.)

I would prefer that you showed that you speak the truth in place of making claims about having god knowledge or spirits informing you. All while on a debate site no less! Please understand, from the outside, you are informing people that you hear voices and have spirits in you and that you actually believe your knowledge comes from a god. Imagine a person making such claims and crediting another god or aliens. Imagine how you would receive their words. It's just your lack of faith being the issue after all.

I explained in the previous post exactly how I would receive their words (that link I copied above explains it as well). I would not react as you are reacting. I would test the inspired expression (the content, the details of the message). You think I have never come across such claims? Of course I have (we all have). Sometimes I can know the claim is false; sometimes I can know the claim is true; sometimes I do not know (and unless it is against love or Christ, I just file it away as something interesting, but no answer to date).

It might be worth considering that there is a bit of an irreconcilable difference between a non-believer and the believer on this matter. I can understand that reaction from a non-believer (or even just a non-Christian).

Being a believer or not, we should never inform a schizophrenic for example that the voices and delusions are real. Even if they speak with the gods or whatever it is they believe. How are your claims different then those of a schizophrenic person or someone that claims to be the risen Christ for example? Why is the returned Christ person 'crazy' while you are not? I'm asking sincerely.

I am not equipped to speak about a schizophrenic. I am not a doctor. I also don't really think in those terms (this person is 'crazy' so never mind anything he/she says; that person is sane so you can believe him/her, etc.) I accept people as they are, and I can consider and/or respond to the content of anything anyone says (unless the situation seems to be that it is best not to engage at all.)

I can tell you that I am not schizophrenic. I cannot prove that to you over the internet (I don't even know how I could prove that to you in person). But I am forty-seven years old. I have heard my Lord since I was a child (as far back as I can remember), though I did not know it was Him speaking. I though it was my own inner voice (and I used to think I was pretty smart because everything from this voice was wise - getting me to think critically, question claims, choose a wise and loving course of action). For example, in "Sunday school class", learning about hell and what comes after we die, I heard "how do they know what they are saying is true?" - and this taught me to question religious authorities from then on. It was not in my personal nature to question people in authority. Even into my thirties, it went against my nature to question authority - EXCEPT - religious authorities (so-called). But it was a good (and essential) lesson for me to learn. Another example: a co-worker was having a hard time. I saw this person after work, sitting dejected and down, and I wanted to ignore it instead of sitting and speaking with them... I was SO tired, and I had my own problems to deal with, and I did not want to get involved with someone else's problems. I heard then (from my Lord, now knowing that He does speak), "Is that what love does?" (this reminder about what love does is something I have received more than once... and this particular occurrence was many years ago... so the wording might not be exact). I responded, no... and proceeded to turn around and sit with this person, talking through many of their problems and concerns. I did not give advice (as far as I can recall); I just listened and sat with them and showed that I cared. Later this person told me I saved their life. But that was my Lord (Jaheshua, the Chosen One of JAH).


I could go on and on and on, Clownboat, but there would just not be room. But I do thank you for the trip down memory lane, because it reminds me just how very much I have to be grateful for.



Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #123]

I am not the only person in Christ who hears His voice.

Lots of people hear voices. Should I trust a Muslim as you would have me trust you when they claim their knowledge is actually Allah's knowledge? Of course not, but that is what you offer, then you blame the victim.

A - I have not asked you (or anyone) to trust me.

B - What victim?

C - You are taking my words above out of their context and, therefore, missing the point about WHO to listen to and WHO to trust.

To interject;

I have also wondered and questioned you on your position Tammy, and as we both know - I have been annoyed by your statements to do with hearing Christ as a 'voice'.

I created a thread many years ago on this very forum to respond to such wondering, and to help prevent the derailment of thread future threads discussing me (instead of the topic). You may have read it: Does Christ speak and how?

Presently I treat your witness in the same way as I treat anyone's witness re hearing a voice/hearing voices, and as 'the voices' [re that real phenomena] present themselves in two main ways - nice and nasty - consider the voice you are listening to and to which you publicly identify as being "Christ" as 'nice' rather than as with Joey Knothead, who tells us his voice is "Nasty".

I know that we have touched on this in our interactions and that you are uncomfortable with this comparison type of analysis, but since both you and Joey have been open to share the experience of your voices, I feel I have no option but to hear you both out, as well as source other stories of other folk and hear what they have to say, in order to try and understand the phenomena folk claim to be taking place.

This is as far as I have got to date;
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?

so I am just reporting through this interjection method, where and why I think your observations re folk discussing you (instead of the topic), derives.

Your sharing re hearing a voice which you do not consider to being your own, begs that response and is the reason why folk want to discuss you with yourself...want to know who you are and why you are telling us about this voice you are hearing which you claim is the voice of The Christ.

You have the stage, as far as I am concerned.

Peace.

[Clownboat]

I am not equipped to speak about a schizophrenic. I am not a doctor. I also don't really think in those terms (this person is 'crazy' so never mind anything he/she says; that person is sane so you can believe him/her, etc.) I accept people as they are, and I can consider and/or respond to the content of anything anyone says (unless the situation seems to be that it is best not to engage at all.)

Just so you know Tam, I believe you when you say you hear voices and I do not doubt that you have heard them since childhood.

I can tell you that I am not schizophrenic.

Note, I do not claim that you are.
I must however take note of this: "Some people suffering from severe mental illness, particularly schizophrenia, hear “voices,” known as auditory hallucinations. This symptom, which afflicts more than 80% of patients, is among the most prevalent and distressing symptoms of schizophrenia."

Obviously, this would explain the voices, but who knows, perhaps you actually have a God of the universe communicating with you? Personally, I do think it would bare out in your posts though.

For example, in "Sunday school class", learning about hell and what comes after we die, I heard "how do they know what they are saying is true?"

If your Sunday school teacher would have told you that a voice told them such a claim was true, and that the voice is the voice of Christ, would you then have believed? What if they said this knowledge was not their own, but the knowledge of the god. Would that have impressed you? Asking for a friend...

[tam]

Peace again,

[Replying to William in post #124]

Your sharing re hearing a voice which you do not consider to being your own, begs that response and is the reason why folk want to discuss you with yourself...want to know who you are and why you are telling us about this voice you are hearing which you claim is the voice of The Christ.

And I think I have been very open in responding to those questions while bearing witness to a living and speaking Christ. I created an entire thread for just that purpose (to explain, and to try and keep from derailing other threads from their actual topic). I think I posted the link above.


Peace again.

[tam]

Peace to you,

I am not equipped to speak about a schizophrenic. I am not a doctor. I also don't really think in those terms (this person is 'crazy' so never mind anything he/she says; that person is sane so you can believe him/her, etc.) I accept people as they are, and I can consider and/or respond to the content of anything anyone says (unless the situation seems to be that it is best not to engage at all.)

Just so you know Tam, I believe you when you say you hear voices and I do not doubt that you have heard them since childhood.

Except that you continue to say 'voices' and 'them'; when I have said Him and HIS voice.

I can tell you that I am not schizophrenic.

Note, I do not claim that you are.
I must however take note of this: "Some people suffering from severe mental illness, particularly schizophrenia, hear “voices,” known as auditory hallucinations. This symptom, which afflicts more than 80% of patients, is among the most prevalent and distressing symptoms of schizophrenia."

Obviously, this would explain the voices, but who knows, perhaps you actually have a God of the universe communicating with you? Personally, I do think it would bare out in your posts though.

Christ spoke to people in the flesh and many still rejected Him (and His words).

For example, in "Sunday school class", learning about hell and what comes after we die, I heard "how do they know what they are saying is true?"

If your Sunday school teacher would have told you that a voice told them such a claim was true, and that the voice is the voice of Christ, would you then have believed? What if they said this knowledge was not their own, but the knowledge of the god. Would that have impressed you? Asking for a friend...

I cannot speak as to what I would have felt as a child, because what you described above never happened when I was a child. But as an adult, my Lord is the very One who taught me to test the content of what was being shared. To focus upon and test the content (the message). If the content/message was false, then it could not have come from Him - regardless of what was being claimed. I see no reason that He would not have guided me if that situation came up in my childhood, since He did guide me when that situation arose as an adult.


Peace again to you.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #126]
My answer;
Re: Does Christ speak and how?
viewtopic.php?p=1102939#p1102939

[Clownboat]

Except that you continue to say 'voices' and 'them'; when I have said Him and HIS voice.

I don't understand the difference if a person is hearing a voice or voices. Is it normal to hear a voice, but crazy to hear many? Either way, I'm confident I did not offend any voice.

Christ spoke to people in the flesh and many still rejected Him (and His words).

Why do you think so many people were unimpressed with Christ in the flesh? If he failed to convince, that would be on him of course, but you attempt to pass the blame. You blaming those that were not convinced is unfair to them.

If I worked for the city and showed up at your house to investigate the water main let's say, but I showed up in my personal car without any city identification on me, would it be your fault if I didn't convince you that I worked for the city? My goal was to convince you that I did and that I needed to check out your water main. Who really is at fault? Obviously I could have done better.

But as an adult, my Lord is the very One who taught me to test the content of what was being shared.

Got it. So you hear a voice you call Christ's, have knowledge that comes from a god, have spirits that interact with you and the god of the universe just so happened to have taught you how to test the content of what it was sharing? Any claims of yours that I got wrong or am missing?

To focus upon and test the content (the message). If the content/message was false, then it could not have come from Him - regardless of what was being claimed.

Let's be honest, you are just explaining the mechanism that got us to all the 10's of thousands of Christian denominations that we have today. Not the hearing of a voice mind you, just the interpreting of the Biblical message.

Peace again to you.

And peace to you!

[2ndpillar2]

"....and all the world wondered after the beast." (Rev. 13:3)

The antichrist is supposed to fool everyone----except true Christians----into worshipping him.

How well would that work out? Would he be able to fool.....

Jews? Judaism holds that only God is to be worshipped and that God does not take any physical form. Worship of any human being is considered blasphemous idolatry, and any wonders the antichrist performed would be interpreted as the workings of a false teacher sent by God to test the Jewish people.

Muslims? Islam also teaches that God takes no physical form, so they too would instantly peg the antichrist as a phony.

Feminist Pagans would reject any god-claim which didn't acknowledge the Goddess.

Atheists would suspect any miracle of being either a trick or a coincidence. An "image of the beast" brought to life could be taken for an artificial intelligence project.

The god-claim of the antichrist being fundamentally incompatible with so many beliefs, who would be left for the antichrist to fool?

You are kind of confusing "anti-Christ" of 1 John 2:13 with the "beast" of Revelation 13:3. The "beast" of Rev 13:3-4 is Julius Caesar, who was "slain" by the Roman Senate, and who was then deemed a god by the Roman Senate, and who ruled as a dictator for "42 months" from the time he crossed the Rubicon until he was slain. At the time of the writing of Rev 13, during the 6th head of the beast (Rev 17) Julius Caesar was the 5th head of the beast (Rev 17), who "was" and is dead, and only ruled as a "healed" god through his successors. The "anti-Christ" of 1 John 2:13 is one who was and is coming, and that many antichrists have arisen and that they went out from us, which is to say, they went out from the original followers of Christ to become antichrist, in that they followed the false prophet Paul, who was a spokesman for the "dragon"/"devil" (Rev 13), and has help "deceive" those who dwell on the earth" (Rev 13:14). As for the "Christian" dogma, they deem Daniel 7:24-25 as the antichrist, but that quote refers to the king following the original 10 Augustus Caesars (10 horns/kings), who was Constantine, and who established the false dogma (Trinity doctrine) of the Roman Catholic Church, which is the propagator of the lies of the father of lies, the devil, for the "dragon"/"devil" gives his authority to the "beast" and his following heads of the beasts (Rev 13:4). As for the "end of the age", it will be the "demon" spirits of the beast, the false prophet, and the devil which will be leading to "kings" to go against Jerusalem and to initiate Har-Magedon (Rev 16:12-13) & (Zech 14). The world is already deceived and will continue to follow the demon spirit of the false prophet, the beast, and the devil to their destruction. We are now in the era of the 8th head of the beast/dictator with 10 horns, who "was" and "is not" during the time of the writing of Revelation 17. The pagans worshipped the "dragon"/"devil" in the form of their gods, such as in the worship of the sun god, Sol Invictus, who they along with the "Christians" worship on the day of the sun. The ongoing beasts only carries the "authority" of the "dragon" (Rev 13:4).