When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.
On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.
Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?
--
Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #1"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #571You continue to jump back and forth between "angels and demons" and "voices in people's heads". The "them" in my comment "people who believe in them" was in reference to angels and demons.William wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:33 pm Rather, [more truthfully] "Not according to some of the people who believe in them."
Neither Carl Jung or Eleanor Longden considered the voices to being supernatural. They do not label the voices 'angels/demons' but clearly they understand the connection has to do with whether the voices are nasty or nice and in that, realize where notions of angels and demons are sourced...in the actual expressions of the voices.
Because I have no qualifications or experience in the areas relevant to the topic.Why not?
I don't even know what your position is anymore.With that, is there anything else to add which you think might still be able to be used to try and argue against my position on the matter?
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #572[Replying to Jose Fly in post #571]
I have already agreed with this assessment and critiqued the belief of these folk, to being in error on the grounds that I have already shared.
________________________________
My Position on "Hearing Voices"
The notion of hearing voices comes about through a real phenomena which affects some individual personalities.
I myself have only had one such experience which I have heard just one time in all my 60 years of life on this planet/in this reality experience.
The voice sounded as if it was external [like any other voice I hear] only there was no source I could identify in the external environment of the room I was in, which could account for that being the case. The source was invisible to my other senses in that regard.
The voice and the words the voice briefly spoke in a sentence, was - full of hatred for me - and thus able to be categorized as a "nasty voice".
This occurred to me in childhood.
{Many years later}
Having been given the opportunity to converse with Joey Knothead on this site, his telling us of his experiences with the nasty voice and what he does in order not to hear the nasty voice, was taken by me to be true because I had experienced similar and so could identify with the reality of it.
The difference between Joey and my experience is that I only suffered the phenomena on one occasion. Even so, I could at least empathize strongly enough to understand what that must be like for someone to have to endure such a thing, consistently.
My interest peaked and I began to dedicate some sturdy into the phenomena, which led to both
Carl Jung or Eleanor Longden testimonies - as well as others with similar stories to tell.
I picked these two because they were aspects of the same phenomena, seemingly coming from very distinct approaches.
Apart from that one incident, I myself only hear one voice - and that voice is clearly coming from an internal source - 'in my head' as the saying goes...and a voice I consider to being 'my own voice' because it sounds like my own voice.
That voice could be self critical, and also loving and supportive, but for all intent and purpose, was never thought of by me as being anything other than my own internal narrative, which I created for my self to listen to - or not - as the case may be.
[I assume that this would be no 'news' to those who operate in that same headspace.]
Something else I learned along the way.
There were external voices which were nasty to me, and their source was visible to me and always came from another human being.
Likewise, there were external voices which were nice to me, also coming from other human beings.
This made me wonder weather the invisible nasty voices folk hear, were projected onto invisible sources outside ones internal workings, as a means of one dealing with actual nasty voices which had been projected into one's headspace from the external actual nasty humans.
In turn, I then investigated this notion, to see whether there could be any truth to it. I am currently still investigating it as a possible likely source to explain the phenomena of hearing external as well as internal invisible voices.
In that - as part of my investigations, I questioned the process I was using to deal with the actual nasty voices, and found therein that I do not always allow those voices to be internalized, that they could wreck havoc with my psyche to the point where I could only despair at my very existence...and in doing so, I identified where I had allowed such to take place, and then went to those places within, and tided up those rooms as they were each identified, in such a manner as to give me a positive sense about my self.
This process allowed me to slowly and surely regain and/or establish for myself a sturdy platform in which to work off of...a sturdy place were I was neither villain nor hero but still "important" to the external and internal process I was engaged within.
Effectively learning to neither be judged or to judge, but also to remain vigilant re the requirement to discern correctly...slippery little trickster that this can be...
I suspect from all this, that I am here on the planet - to offer nice comments to the other beings who are/make themselves visible and external to me, withinmind that any which are not, are nonetheless treated with the same overall 'respect'.
In listening to Joey, and those others, I began to understand something which had occurred to me and was also of my own making - and that a device I created in order to help me with that overall process mentioned above - did an incredible job of helping me to successfully coming to terms with "the voices within and without" who clearly had things to say to me, but not until they had got my attention sufficiently that they could even begin to do so.
I have spoken about this process before on this site, so won't bore those who know the details already.
Suffice to say, at the time, it involved a mirror, with symbolism etched into the coating on the reverse side, the Ideomotor Phenomena and a will to delve into - what turned out to be a deep and meaningful internal thing which at first I had approached as an external connection with invisible entities.
The Message Generating process I currently use, evolved from that.
That is specifically why I mentioned Carl Jung and his studies - as what I was eventually informed through this process [use of the etched-mirror device] was that 'the voices' were all really 'me' and that the 'me' was nothing like the 'me' I thought /had been told by other humans I was.
Point being, the voices are real, and can be communicated with. Not just through said device, but in many other ways.
Are they 'demons and angels' or something other than an inner wrestling match between apparently opposing voices?
That is a good question to examine and answer for ones self...
...I think so, anyway.
I am currently watching/listening to this;
Rather, [more truthfully] "Not according to some of the people who believe in them."
Neither Carl Jung or Eleanor Longden considered the voices to being supernatural. They do not label the voices 'angels/demons' but clearly they understand the connection has to do with whether the voices are nasty or nice and in that, realize where notions of angels and demons are sourced...in the actual expressions of the voices.
I agree with your assessment. I do so for reasons I am also sharing alongside that.You continue to jump back and forth between "angels and demons" and "voices in people's heads".
Unsure as to what you are trying to express here Jose. It appears to me you are saying "according to the people who believe in angels and demons, these people believe the angels and demons are 'supernatural'.The "them" in my comment "people who believe in them" was in reference to angels and demons.
I have already agreed with this assessment and critiqued the belief of these folk, to being in error on the grounds that I have already shared.
If we are just referring to 'voices' how to we reconcile the different types of voices which people say that they hear?That's not something I'm qualified to speak to.Why not? You appear to be sensible and intelligent. What else qualifies someone to speak to anything which occurs in this universe, such as the hearing of different types of voices?
Okay. Do you mean that you have no business commenting about things which you have no expertise about, due to having no experiences with said 'voices'?Because I have no qualifications or experience in the areas relevant to the topic.
With that, is there anything else to add which you think might still be able to be used to try and argue against my position on the matter?
I am happy to explain my position in more detail to the reader then.I don't even know what your position is anymore.
________________________________
My Position on "Hearing Voices"
The notion of hearing voices comes about through a real phenomena which affects some individual personalities.
I myself have only had one such experience which I have heard just one time in all my 60 years of life on this planet/in this reality experience.
The voice sounded as if it was external [like any other voice I hear] only there was no source I could identify in the external environment of the room I was in, which could account for that being the case. The source was invisible to my other senses in that regard.
The voice and the words the voice briefly spoke in a sentence, was - full of hatred for me - and thus able to be categorized as a "nasty voice".
This occurred to me in childhood.
{Many years later}
Having been given the opportunity to converse with Joey Knothead on this site, his telling us of his experiences with the nasty voice and what he does in order not to hear the nasty voice, was taken by me to be true because I had experienced similar and so could identify with the reality of it.
The difference between Joey and my experience is that I only suffered the phenomena on one occasion. Even so, I could at least empathize strongly enough to understand what that must be like for someone to have to endure such a thing, consistently.
My interest peaked and I began to dedicate some sturdy into the phenomena, which led to both
Carl Jung or Eleanor Longden testimonies - as well as others with similar stories to tell.
I picked these two because they were aspects of the same phenomena, seemingly coming from very distinct approaches.
Apart from that one incident, I myself only hear one voice - and that voice is clearly coming from an internal source - 'in my head' as the saying goes...and a voice I consider to being 'my own voice' because it sounds like my own voice.
That voice could be self critical, and also loving and supportive, but for all intent and purpose, was never thought of by me as being anything other than my own internal narrative, which I created for my self to listen to - or not - as the case may be.
[I assume that this would be no 'news' to those who operate in that same headspace.]
Something else I learned along the way.
There were external voices which were nasty to me, and their source was visible to me and always came from another human being.
Likewise, there were external voices which were nice to me, also coming from other human beings.
This made me wonder weather the invisible nasty voices folk hear, were projected onto invisible sources outside ones internal workings, as a means of one dealing with actual nasty voices which had been projected into one's headspace from the external actual nasty humans.
In turn, I then investigated this notion, to see whether there could be any truth to it. I am currently still investigating it as a possible likely source to explain the phenomena of hearing external as well as internal invisible voices.
In that - as part of my investigations, I questioned the process I was using to deal with the actual nasty voices, and found therein that I do not always allow those voices to be internalized, that they could wreck havoc with my psyche to the point where I could only despair at my very existence...and in doing so, I identified where I had allowed such to take place, and then went to those places within, and tided up those rooms as they were each identified, in such a manner as to give me a positive sense about my self.
This process allowed me to slowly and surely regain and/or establish for myself a sturdy platform in which to work off of...a sturdy place were I was neither villain nor hero but still "important" to the external and internal process I was engaged within.
Effectively learning to neither be judged or to judge, but also to remain vigilant re the requirement to discern correctly...slippery little trickster that this can be...
I suspect from all this, that I am here on the planet - to offer nice comments to the other beings who are/make themselves visible and external to me, withinmind that any which are not, are nonetheless treated with the same overall 'respect'.
In listening to Joey, and those others, I began to understand something which had occurred to me and was also of my own making - and that a device I created in order to help me with that overall process mentioned above - did an incredible job of helping me to successfully coming to terms with "the voices within and without" who clearly had things to say to me, but not until they had got my attention sufficiently that they could even begin to do so.
I have spoken about this process before on this site, so won't bore those who know the details already.
Suffice to say, at the time, it involved a mirror, with symbolism etched into the coating on the reverse side, the Ideomotor Phenomena and a will to delve into - what turned out to be a deep and meaningful internal thing which at first I had approached as an external connection with invisible entities.
The Message Generating process I currently use, evolved from that.
That is specifically why I mentioned Carl Jung and his studies - as what I was eventually informed through this process [use of the etched-mirror device] was that 'the voices' were all really 'me' and that the 'me' was nothing like the 'me' I thought /had been told by other humans I was.
Point being, the voices are real, and can be communicated with. Not just through said device, but in many other ways.
Are they 'demons and angels' or something other than an inner wrestling match between apparently opposing voices?
That is a good question to examine and answer for ones self...
...I think so, anyway.
I am currently watching/listening to this;
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #573Okay, thanks for the discussion.William wrote: ↑Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:00 pm [Replying to Jose Fly in post #571]
Rather, [more truthfully] "Not according to some of the people who believe in them."
Neither Carl Jung or Eleanor Longden considered the voices to being supernatural. They do not label the voices 'angels/demons' but clearly they understand the connection has to do with whether the voices are nasty or nice and in that, realize where notions of angels and demons are sourced...in the actual expressions of the voices.I agree with your assessment. I do so for reasons I am also sharing alongside that.You continue to jump back and forth between "angels and demons" and "voices in people's heads".
Unsure as to what you are trying to express here Jose. It appears to me you are saying "according to the people who believe in angels and demons, these people believe the angels and demons are 'supernatural'.The "them" in my comment "people who believe in them" was in reference to angels and demons.
I have already agreed with this assessment and critiqued the belief of these folk, to being in error on the grounds that I have already shared.If we are just referring to 'voices' how to we reconcile the different types of voices which people say that they hear?That's not something I'm qualified to speak to.Why not? You appear to be sensible and intelligent. What else qualifies someone to speak to anything which occurs in this universe, such as the hearing of different types of voices?Okay. Do you mean that you have no business commenting about things which you have no expertise about, due to having no experiences with said 'voices'?Because I have no qualifications or experience in the areas relevant to the topic.
With that, is there anything else to add which you think might still be able to be used to try and argue against my position on the matter?I am happy to explain my position in more detail to the reader then.I don't even know what your position is anymore.
________________________________
My Position on "Hearing Voices"
The notion of hearing voices comes about through a real phenomena which affects some individual personalities.
I myself have only had one such experience which I have heard just one time in all my 60 years of life on this planet/in this reality experience.
The voice sounded as if it was external [like any other voice I hear] only there was no source I could identify in the external environment of the room I was in, which could account for that being the case. The source was invisible to my other senses in that regard.
The voice and the words the voice briefly spoke in a sentence, was - full of hatred for me - and thus able to be categorized as a "nasty voice".
This occurred to me in childhood.
{Many years later}
Having been given the opportunity to converse with Joey Knothead on this site, his telling us of his experiences with the nasty voice and what he does in order not to hear the nasty voice, was taken by me to be true because I had experienced similar and so could identify with the reality of it.
The difference between Joey and my experience is that I only suffered the phenomena on one occasion. Even so, I could at least empathize strongly enough to understand what that must be like for someone to have to endure such a thing, consistently.
My interest peaked and I began to dedicate some sturdy into the phenomena, which led to both
Carl Jung or Eleanor Longden testimonies - as well as others with similar stories to tell.
I picked these two because they were aspects of the same phenomena, seemingly coming from very distinct approaches.
Apart from that one incident, I myself only hear one voice - and that voice is clearly coming from an internal source - 'in my head' as the saying goes...and a voice I consider to being 'my own voice' because it sounds like my own voice.
That voice could be self critical, and also loving and supportive, but for all intent and purpose, was never thought of by me as being anything other than my own internal narrative, which I created for my self to listen to - or not - as the case may be.
[I assume that this would be no 'news' to those who operate in that same headspace.]
Something else I learned along the way.
There were external voices which were nasty to me, and their source was visible to me and always came from another human being.
Likewise, there were external voices which were nice to me, also coming from other human beings.
This made me wonder weather the invisible nasty voices folk hear, were projected onto invisible sources outside ones internal workings, as a means of one dealing with actual nasty voices which had been projected into one's headspace from the external actual nasty humans.
In turn, I then investigated this notion, to see whether there could be any truth to it. I am currently still investigating it as a possible likely source to explain the phenomena of hearing external as well as internal invisible voices.
In that - as part of my investigations, I questioned the process I was using to deal with the actual nasty voices, and found therein that I do not always allow those voices to be internalized, that they could wreck havoc with my psyche to the point where I could only despair at my very existence...and in doing so, I identified where I had allowed such to take place, and then went to those places within, and tided up those rooms as they were each identified, in such a manner as to give me a positive sense about my self.
This process allowed me to slowly and surely regain and/or establish for myself a sturdy platform in which to work off of...a sturdy place were I was neither villain nor hero but still "important" to the external and internal process I was engaged within.
Effectively learning to neither be judged or to judge, but also to remain vigilant re the requirement to discern correctly...slippery little trickster that this can be...
I suspect from all this, that I am here on the planet - to offer nice comments to the other beings who are/make themselves visible and external to me, withinmind that any which are not, are nonetheless treated with the same overall 'respect'.
In listening to Joey, and those others, I began to understand something which had occurred to me and was also of my own making - and that a device I created in order to help me with that overall process mentioned above - did an incredible job of helping me to successfully coming to terms with "the voices within and without" who clearly had things to say to me, but not until they had got my attention sufficiently that they could even begin to do so.
I have spoken about this process before on this site, so won't bore those who know the details already.
Suffice to say, at the time, it involved a mirror, with symbolism etched into the coating on the reverse side, the Ideomotor Phenomena and a will to delve into - what turned out to be a deep and meaningful internal thing which at first I had approached as an external connection with invisible entities.
The Message Generating process I currently use, evolved from that.
That is specifically why I mentioned Carl Jung and his studies - as what I was eventually informed through this process [use of the etched-mirror device] was that 'the voices' were all really 'me' and that the 'me' was nothing like the 'me' I thought /had been told by other humans I was.
Point being, the voices are real, and can be communicated with. Not just through said device, but in many other ways.
Are they 'demons and angels' or something other than an inner wrestling match between apparently opposing voices?
That is a good question to examine and answer for ones self...
...I think so, anyway.
I am currently watching/listening to this;
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #574[Replying to Jose Fly in post #573]
All the best.
eta; Youtube link to the video I mentioned I was currently watching...and have now watched...
You are more than welcome Josh. Hopefully we can continue together with the discussion, if not now, then at some later place...Okay, thanks for the discussion.
All the best.
eta; Youtube link to the video I mentioned I was currently watching...and have now watched...
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #575Prove that what I said is unconstructive one-liner responses that don't add to the debate as desrcibed in the forum Rules (#9).DrNoGods wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:46 pm [Replying to OneWay in post #544]
Moderator CommentDon't go backwards.
Please avoid unconstructive one-liner responses that don't add to the debate, as desrcibed in the forum Rules (#9).
______________
Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics..
I do not believe you can do it.
My argument is that it was a reply to their question to which they posted to me.
If they had not asked me questions to which was responded by
my reply, I would not have stated that to which you claim without evidence or proof
was a unconstructive one-liner responses that don't add to the debate, as desrcibed in the forum Rules (#9).
Maybe you should inform them to stop asking me unconstructive questions that don't add to the debate, as desrcibed in the forum Rules (#9).
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #576I know their voice.Jose Fly wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:08 pmHow do you tell when it's a demon speaking to you?OneWay wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:15 amDemons speak to you all the time.
So therefore you do not have to summon them up...as you say.
They speak to everyone
at one time or another.
Some more than others
depending upon their agenda and objective.
They can speak to you through another human
or they can speak to you through your mind.
They have several ways of communicating with you.
But what you are seeking is to find an open door to
speak with them as one of them.
Before you can do that,
they have open the door for you.
That ain't going to happen for you.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #577How did you acquire this knowledge?
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #579Hearing demons can be a sign of severe emotional distress, up to and including psychological disorders.
If anyone thinks they're hearing demons, it's very important to reach out to medical professionals trained in such.
There's therapies and antipsychotics that can work to address this very dangerous condition.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #580If you cannot see the mark, you are the mark.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:58 amHearing demons can be a sign of severe emotional distress, up to and including psychological disorders.
If anyone thinks they're hearing demons, it's very important to reach out to medical professionals trained in such.
There's therapies and antipsychotics that can work to address this very dangerous condition.